Master-debating

[TwistedCU]

Yup, 9pm EST.

On cable's finest: Fox News Channel :wink:

I'm pretty beat too. I haven't had a day off in over two weeks. Or is ith three? Lost count. I'm off next Tuesday though :roll:

 

[Tug-n-pull]

I wish I could afford to be a republican! hehehe tug

 

[TwistedCU]

I don't get that Tug. Kerry/Edwards already said they are going to raise taxes, while Bush/Cheney are extending the tax relief that we've been enjoying for the last 4 years.

Kerry says he is going to raise them only for the upper brackets. Problem is the upper bracket targets the majority of small businessmen who file personal returns. There are a lot of jobs under small businesses. Either the employees or the consumers have to make up the difference. Either way it is bad for the economy. If Kerry sticks to leavong the middle to lower brackets alone (fat chance) he will rescind the tax breaks which means that technically they wont go up, but you will get less money.

I can't afford to be a democrat. Those child tax credits have made a big difference to this one income family. So have the tax breaks.

Edwards and Kerry both said they want to double the US forces in Iraq. Sounds like the ones who dispute the validity of the war only want to get us deeper in it. I guess they have to spend the extra taxes they plan on taking from us somehow.

 

[mingez]

I wasn't offended. You're always apologizing for offending me. you don't offend me damnit

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

LOL I was just feeling as if you were twisting what I wrote about one thing and mis-applying it to another. I try not to do that, but we're all human, and I may even have done it myself.

Of course I was twisting what you wrote...cause the Jeepz.com Messageboard is a form of Media, and I'm trying to liberally bias it. :lol:

Hey dude, we are usually on differing sides politically, but I guarantee you that I respect the fact that your position(s) are always from a position of intelligence. You're just being a GRUFF Facist bastid.. It's okay Adolf, put down your guard. :lol: :lol: Hee hee...

BTW- That Treehugger blast was funny... good form. :lol:

 

[Special_K]

Special K -
Not one of those say Saddam is linked to 9/11. Iraq to terroists, Terrorists to 9/11. It is true that Saddam and his Irqi regime had links to terror networks. It is true 9/11 was carried out by terrorists.

Spare me the spin, I see it every evening on cable TV.

Absolutely no spin necessary. So he never said precisely "Saddam was directly connected to 9/11"...but he is using Al Qaeda as a proxy for 9/11 and the result is a clear implication that Saddam was connected to 9/11...and that's no stretch and no spin. Is it unreasonable or a stretch that people associate Al Qaeda with 9/11?

There are several ways to lie and this is one of them...that is, association and context. For instance, in answering one question of why we're in Iraq, he directly states that it's a response to the attacks of 9/11 ("...we didn't do anything to provoke the attack of 9/11...we were attacked...and we responded..."). To no surprise, anyone can argue that what he said is technically correct since he stated that we were responding to terrorists, but the message comes across largely as written above.

If you wanted to lie to say that you didn't cut down an apple tree (when you did) without being clearly called on a blatant lie, you might say "I wasn't in the area most of that day and I've hardly even know how to use a saw." Both of those statements could be absolutely positively correct, but when the two are put together in response to the direct question like "Did you (or who) cut down that apple tree?"...the result misleads the listener...the truths are constructed in a way that encourages the listener to LOGICALLY DEDUCE a false conclusion. This is still a just as big of a lie as "I didn't cut down that apple tree"...it's simply not as direct. As a result, one could still argue that everything that was said was correct.

Blatant and black and white it may not be, but it is still very real and very potent. The mass perception that Saddam was directly connected to 9/11 didn't just magically materialize in most people's minds. It was planted and regularly fertilized by repeated statements like these. Through that intentional, repeated association and tightly linked context many people have a clear impression that Saddam and yes, 9/11, were directly connected...and the existence of that impression is no accident. Once or twice...coincidence, maybe. Just about every single time, carefully worded to indirectly mislead in this manner...no coincidence. Furthemore, there's been no clarification to boot.

Call it nuance, but welcome to the real world. It may not always be black and white, but even the grays are very real.

 

[mingez]

but he is using Al Qaeda as a proxy for 9/11 and the result is a clear implication that Saddam was connected to 9/11

And this is the real "SPIN", doctored by the voodoo-ticians to justify Iraq. PROXY indeed.

And unfortunately, this type of strategy works very well... on many.

 

[TwistedCU]

My jaw dropped when Cheney said he hadn't suggested that 9/11 and Saddam weren't connected.

So he never said precisely "Saddam was directly connected to 9/11".

My point is made. THose 4 paragraphs with your philosophy on lying and Cheney's "Intent" is just proof to me that you are trying way too hard to be correct when the truth is in these sentances.

************

he is using Al Qaeda as a proxy for 9/11

Al Qaeda a proxy for 9/11? I don't think they are a "proxy". They are the group that orchestrated and executed the attacks. Are you disputing that?

Is it unreasonable or a stretch that people associate Al Qaeda with 9/11?

I think people more than associate them with 9/11.

 

[Tug-n-pull]

I don't get that Tug. Kerry/Edwards already said they are going to raise taxes, while Bush/Cheney are extending the tax relief that we've been enjoying for the last 4 years.

I dont exspect you to. I for one have not enjoyed the big ol tax relief you speak of. As a small business owner or should I say an ex-small business owner I can tell you I have never seen the business enviroment in such a sad state of affairs. Now was in slightly bigger business such as exxon I would be in heaven. But being in a market that made its dollars from peoples expendable cash selling Antiques and Collectibles that are not a need but rather a want I had to close the doors for now. I went from holding at least one Auction a week many weeks up to 3 auctions. Prices for what I deal in droped up to 75% over the past four years. There were 3 to 5 local estate sales each and every Saturday around here now there are never more than 2 and the majority of the weeks have none. Antique malls shop and even flea markets have lost much business in the so called better quality markets, such as Antiques and Collectibles and have all turned in to Yard Sale china import and cast off junk type markets.

Now I know I am a specilized market but it has been very profitable up untill the Bush Admin. I have suffered more here in the past 4 years than I did under the Regan admin and that is saying something. So I hope this explains that I can not afford to be a republican. Cause folks are working so hard to pay the cable bill and rent that there is no extra cash and I am speaking first hand and not talking as a political presents. I can speak from the playing field on this I as at the grass roots of the secondary market. I have had to go from being a respected local merchant providing a service, employing local people to driven a truck and cooking for a living.

I am not the only Auctioneer in the state or even the 4 surrounding states that have had to go to work in the job pool to keep their family feed. Now i do not exspect you to think Auctionners are anything special so let me also explain that. This country is built on an auction system. In Colonal times an Auctioneer was aforded the title of Col. During the civil war both sides gave the Auctioneers a Rank of Col. upon enlistment. The Stock market is the worlds largest Auction. The only way to set a real market value of something is to allow the buyers in a well advertised well attended open auction enviroment to bid and set the price for an item.

I am far from wall street but even here in my small town the Auction is a way for people and business to recycle stock into working capital. Selling business overstock and dead peoples stuff in the form of estate sales. All needs to be done and that market was always profitable untill the past four years for me and many of the some 6000 other state liscened auctioneers here in Tennessee.

Now if I were an employee of a big business it may have be a real tax break but for me it was just another Republican load of rederick and double talking male cow crap. The only bright side to this all is in 24 days we will have a chance to go vote and stop either Bush from doing any more harm that is right there in front of you or stop Kerry from doing what ever harm you for see him doing in the furture. At least Jeepz will return to site where the biggest worry will be talking some newbie out of wasten money on them 6" lift shackles or a 8" body lift! tug

 

[Special_K]

My jaw dropped when Cheney said he hadn't suggested that 9/11 and Saddam weren't connected.

So he never said precisely "Saddam was directly connected to 9/11".

My point is made. THose 4 paragraphs with your philosophy on lying and Cheney's "Intent" is just proof to me that you are trying way too hard to be correct when the truth is in these sentances.

Wrong. Point not made.

Plain and simple: I said I was surprised when Cheney said he hadn't suggested 9/11 were connected. Then I said he's never stated precisely that the two were connected but that he has implied (i.e. SUGGESTED) it.

Nice selective use of two quotes to try to imply I've contracdicted myself when I haven't whatsoever. The next step would be to suggest I'm a flip-flop.

You clearly don't have to believe what I've stated and you're certainly not forced to because it isn't cut and dried, black and white...so there is some wiggle room. However, you're completely disregarding the rational and the logical based on technicalities that suit you.

The message is clear...both mine and Cheney's. The decision of what you want to believe is obviously yours.

 

[Inspector-Gadget]

engine cleaning

In answer to TwistedCopper, Tug-n-pull wrote:

I dont exspect you to. I for one have not enjoyed the big ol tax relief you speak of. As a small business owner …

Now I know I am a specilized market but it has been very profitable up untill the Bush Admin. I have suffered more …

I am not the only Auctioneer in the state or even the 4 surrounding states that have had to go to work in the job pool to keep their family feed. Now i do …

I am far from wall street but even here in my small town the Auction is a way for people and business to…

Now if I were an employee of a big business it may have be a real tax break but for me it was just another Republican load of rederick and double…

Tug, a touching from the heart message if I have ever read one. One sentence of your missive jumped out at me, however. I have to say that sentence bothered me a great deal.

This sentence:

I have had to go from being a respected (Gadget emphasis) local merchant providing a service, employing local people to driven a truck and cooking for a living.

Tug, politics aside for a moment, you have adapted to changed business conditions. As uncomfortable as that process can be, you have done what a good husband, and good father and a good man is supposed to do.

You are out there making a living for you and your family. You have not become a burden to others. There should be more like you.

Having been in Unicoi, TN (I believe you live in the vicinity), I am aware of the tough job market in that area -- no small accomplishment that you have pulled-off by getting two jobs!

I do not normally presume to speak for others, but in this instance I believe that I can safely do so.

It matters not to me and I suspect it matters not to others if you earn your living with an auctioneer's gavel in your hand or a Kenworth shift-knob in your hand.

Your "respect quotient" is a high as ever -- and deservedly so!

This is all likely small personal comfort for you; nevertheless, a Gadget thought that needed to be shared.

Regards,

Gadget

 

[Tug-n-pull]

Friend Gadget,
I do live in Unicoi and I thank you for the kind word's and from you are they are a great comfort. May I also say it is good to have you back and you were missed when you left us. Please do not leave us again. tug

 

[TwistedCU]

Tug I hope I didn't offend you. I obviously was unaware of your situation. One thing that comes to my mind is that your profession as an auctioneer is one that may actually see better times while others are not so fortunate. I undertsand that many estate type auctions are the result of a family loss, but, and this is out of complete speculation, don't many auctions come to be as a result of someone falling on hard times? I just can't help thinking that a lack of business in that field may partly be the result of a good economy.

I really do not know if this is the case, and what I am writing is more of a question than a rebuttal.

Please understand that in no way shape or form is this an attempt to criticize auctions, they are an essential part of our lives and economy, and I believe that every service and trade performed in this country are crucial to our success wether it be auctioneering, medical research, a trash man, or a politically over-zealous phone man.

Like Gadget has said, it's good to see a man step up to the plate when times are difficult. Judging from what kind of man I have become to know you to be, I'm sure it was never a question for you to go out and bust your hump for your family.

 

[mingez]

I'd like to add, that Tug has a big heart, and has helped others in need, inspite of economic times.

 

[Tug-n-pull]

Friend Twisted Copper, true many auctions do come from familys falling on hard times but that is much more in the big farming areas of the country. My primary estate income came from like I said Dead Peoples stuff. House wears, furniture, Pots and pans type of estate sales come my way not the large farm with tractors and other rolling stock with cattle and so forth. It is from the specility type auction that I conduct that is made up of Antiques, collectibles, Guns, jewlery, private collections of coins glass, pottery and ect.... that I sell to multiple dealers for fresh stock in the antique and other specility type shops. Basicly we keep the antique dealers of the area in supply with a flow of merchandise. Now things are in a buyers market so the seller who can afford to are setting on their extra and or stale older merchandise are doing so or are looking to sell out right not having to give the auctioneer his commission. I hope this expained this for you. As an auctioneer you have to be an agent for the seller trying to get the highest price yet keeping the buyer happy as well. A real in the middle of the road deal. When you have to drop the gavel on a mans items worth more than the high bid and look the seller in the eye all the while it makes for a hard day. Yet you can only get what is bid and even though the seller bought it at a deal 3, 4, 5, even 6 years ago for 2, 3, and even 4 times what you are selling it for now hurts. Does this make sence to you. I have a hard time saying what I mean not being able spell worth a lick any way. heheh tug

 

[TwistedCU]

Oh you made perfect sense... and shot my theory all to hell :lol:

So it is not a lack of goods being sold, it is a lack of auctions being needed because folks are selling the whole lot at once to save some cash, right?

Out of curiosity, how has ebay impacted that line of work? I know you mentioned that you are a seller, but I was wondering if it has made any significant impact on the flow of goods going through a conventional auction. My guess would be that it hasn't made much of a difference because Ebay is a one item at a time deal - but - you'll probably shoot that one down too :lol:

 

[Tug-n-pull]

eBay is a tool. A very good tool. eBay has leveled the playing field so to speak. Pre eBay days I was always going on trips looking for an item that may be little know in another state that was very collectible in my area. Also takeing items known to sell high in one area from here bought at a bargan to sell on the way. Many auction firms will beat their chest and cry when you mention eBay and many such as I reveled in the fact we had yet another tool to market with. In the early days of eBay you could sell any thing and do well now days it has become a selective market for the odd and rare. One thing eBay did to the market was to prove the ponit that there is no shortage of Junque! I have made a ton of ez cash on eBay but now it is not such a great market for me due to the fact that odd and rare are harder to find all the time. I guess I danced all around that question didn't I. Has it hurt or helped the auction market. My answer is yes it has! I has helped and hurt it all in how use looked and or used it. As for impact on flow of goods what buyers and sellers it took away it replaced with eBay seller want to be's. They would buy to sell online it would not sell for the reserve so they would rerun it thru another and or the same auction. Plus a small town auction is a good form of cheap entertainment on a week night even if you buy or sell. hope that answered your question as well. the wheel will turn over again and time and money will flow just has it always has. Ebb and Flow the tides of the economy rise and fall all the time. Just can not find a good tide chart to follow. tug

 

[TwistedCU]

Wrong. Point not made.

Plain and simple: I said I was surprised when Cheney said he hadn't suggested 9/11 were connected. Then I said he's never stated precisely that the two were connected but that he has implied (i.e. SUGGESTED) it.

Ok. I'll give you that. That is what you said.

You clearly don't have to believe what I've stated and you're certainly not forced to because it isn't cut and dried, black and white...so there is some wiggle room. However, you're completely disregarding the rational and the logical based on technicalities that suit you.

The message is clear...both mine and Cheney's. The decision of what you want to believe is obviously yours.

I will merely repeat what I wrote earlier - Cheney made a connection between Iraqi officials and terror networks. He has made a point of not saying there was a link between Saddam Hussein and the 9/11 attacks. As a matter of fact he has made a point of saying that he is not saying it :? Nome sayin'?

Yes your message is clear, and you are right, I do not buy it. It is not because I do not want to believe it, but because I think it is inaccurate. I also take into consideration your desire for it to be true.

Instead of suggestion, assumption, and implied meanings, maybe we should agree to disagree and let the next exchange be about something more concrete and a little less, as you put it, "wiggle room"(Off in the distance, LadyJeepFreak rejoices :lol: )

Oh, and you're not a flip-flop. That's Kerry's gig :wink:

 

[LadyJeepFreak]

:shock: :shock: Did I just hear you lay down your weapon Twisted? LOL

I would rejoice in a break from politics for sure. I can't keep up with you all, being less informed and less passionate about the topic. I enjoy a good debate as well though but sometimes wince when I see the feelings flow through the words people write when in the passionate throes of debate. It is so hard to imply a proper meaning and positive feelings through words that have no verbal connotation.

We just have to keep that in mind and the reason were all here, cuz were great jeeping buddies.

I'll have pictures of my new jeep stuff happening around here sometime tomorrow I think, will start a thread!

Lady

 

[Sully]

Dick is the winner hands down.

 

[mingez]

(Off in the distance, LadyJeepFreak rejoices )

hee hee