Texas Gringo
New member
Need a warn winch for a 92 & 93 Wrangler. What model do I need? How about a M8000? Overkill??
Warn winch
- Thread starter Texas Gringo
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phall92139
New member
Overkill. Absolutely not but it really depends on what kind of wheeling you do. Stuck to your axles in mud, buried in sand, or trying to winch up a near vertical rock strewn waterfall and the actual load you will place on that winch can easily be twice the weight of your rig. My 9.5Ti has worked well for me. Personally I'd be leery of anything smaller but a lot of guys run the M8000 or M8274-50 and are very happy.
As always, let me refer you to the Billavista's Recovery Bible...
Pirate4x4.Com - Extreme Four Wheel Drive,
one of the best resources around for winching information.
Saddle Tramp
New member
To me, the winch is the last line of defense between driving home or walking home/spending the night in the wilds. Don’t scrimp no mater how little you plan on using it. The misleading thing about winch ratings is that the numbers are figured on a full spool; once you have a little line out the real pull value starts to diminish fast. Go big or at least make sure your trail buddy did. Just my opinion.
jfrabat
New member
I agree with the above posts; if it's just meant to look good all the time, but work very few times, the M8000 will do fine, but for hard use, I would go a bit bigger. The good thing about Warn, though, is that they loose less on the second and third layer than the rest. I personally have a Superwinch EPi9.0 and I am happy with it, but Warn is also a great winch. Of course, the M8000 is their entry winch, so if you plan on using it often consider upgrading to a bigger size...
Saddle Tramp
New member
According to 4WD Winch Advisor a 10,500 lb rated pull is only 6,400 lbs by the time you get 4 layers down on the spool or about 61% of original capacity. So an 8,000 lb rated winch by that standard would end up at about a 4,880 lb capacity on layer 4 of the spool. I know I tend to be a bit of a Tim Tool Man Taylor when it comes to things but in this case I would buy all the winch I could afford.
phall92139
New member
Maybe it's me but I'm getting confused here.
When we talk about the pulling capacity of a winch it is not when there is more line on the drum but just the opposite, when there is less line wrapped on the drum. The maximum pulling capacity occurs on the first layer of wire rope on the drum. As the layers increase, the pulling power decreases. However, and this is IMPORTANT per a warning from Warn, "never operate winch with less than 5 wraps of rope around the drum. Rope could come loose from the drum, as the rope attachment to the drum is not designed to hold a load."
That means if you have 100 feet of winch line you probably have to have it pulled out roughly 90 feet to get maximum pull, which is already less than what the winch was rated for. As you reel the line in the winch pull becomes less powerful. The only way around this is multi-line pulls using snatch blocks so also make sure your shackles and snatch blocks are top quality and rated to handle the loads.
Again, if it was just me missing this then I apologize for belaboring the subject. I just want to make certain we are all clear on how a winch operates.
When we talk about the pulling capacity of a winch it is not when there is more line on the drum but just the opposite, when there is less line wrapped on the drum. The maximum pulling capacity occurs on the first layer of wire rope on the drum. As the layers increase, the pulling power decreases. However, and this is IMPORTANT per a warning from Warn, "never operate winch with less than 5 wraps of rope around the drum. Rope could come loose from the drum, as the rope attachment to the drum is not designed to hold a load."
That means if you have 100 feet of winch line you probably have to have it pulled out roughly 90 feet to get maximum pull, which is already less than what the winch was rated for. As you reel the line in the winch pull becomes less powerful. The only way around this is multi-line pulls using snatch blocks so also make sure your shackles and snatch blocks are top quality and rated to handle the loads.
Again, if it was just me missing this then I apologize for belaboring the subject. I just want to make certain we are all clear on how a winch operates.
SteelHeadz
Super Moderator
I would go with the 8000lb winch. that should be sufficient for your Jeep. This thread IS confusing to me as well. When i was restoring my Warn 8000 on my Jeep, i talked to the manufacturers tech support to gather up some decals specific for my winch model, i was asked how it performed thru the years of abuse and i have to say that it's been good to me. He explained that although the rating is at 8000lb, it's actual test rating surpassed a 10,000lb test. This is to ensure that the rated capacity can exceed a certain amount which in this case, 2,000lbs. My overall experience with the unit i have and the customer support is by far the best. They sent me all the decals i needed to restore my winch for free thats valued at $80.00. That made me more happier than ever.
jfrabat
New member
That's probably why warn has a greater pulling power in the second and third layer than the rest... And yes, Warn IS the most expensive, but it is also the most recognized brand. There's a reason for that.
phall92139
New member
Guys, if this thread is confusing, someone jump in and help clear it up. A winch is too important a recovery tool with far too much potential for injury or death to leave the uninitiated with muddled or inaccurate information. If I have made a mistake here please correct me.
I don't want to get into specific winches. Let the buyer check out specs and reputations for themselves. Also, I am not bashing whatever anyone is running on their own rigs right now. If you weighed all the factors such as design, specifications, intended use, budgetary constraints, and your own personal view as to how important this tool is, and selected the winch you have bolted to your rig now, that's great. All I want to do is put out some good information, not criticize anyone's decisions.
Back to the winch...
Bear in mind that as stated in the Recovery Bible, most people don't have a clue as to what the actual weight of their rig is as it sets on the trail loaded with gas, tools, equipment, food, camping gear, people, etc., etc. Also, the effective weight of a stuck rig is often more than 1.5 times the Gross Vehicle Weight used for selecting a winch size. On my own rig, the effective weight could easily reach 10,000-15,000 pounds.
Add to this the fact that the MINIMUM BREAKING STRENGTH of wire rope applies ONLY to a NEW, UNUSED rope. You must figure in a Design Factor, such as the industry standard of "5" to determine the safe work load for a given wire rope. That would be like taking a brand new 5/16" 7X19 Galvanized Steel Cable rated for a minimum (or nominal) breaking strength of 9,800 pounds and dividing that by 5 to end up with a safe work load of 1,960 pounds. Figure in the quality of the rest of the hardware, how the hook is attached to the cable, the age and actual condition of the cable and you can see how convoluted this all gets and why it is so hard to make a good decision.
Ultimately though, the question gets back to, "so what winch do I buy?" Again, in the real world I've seen a lot of guys with 8,000 pound winches that seem to do just fine. As I said, I like my 9.5Ti. Would a 12,000 pound winch be better? Not to me considering the additional 47 pounds of weight it would add to the front end of my Jeep (136lbs. versus 89lbs.). I guess like a lot of other things there are compromises that will be made but it is important to understand what they are and how you arrived at that decision.
A winch is a great recovery tool but it's gotta work when needed and it can kill you if you're not careful.
I don't want to get into specific winches. Let the buyer check out specs and reputations for themselves. Also, I am not bashing whatever anyone is running on their own rigs right now. If you weighed all the factors such as design, specifications, intended use, budgetary constraints, and your own personal view as to how important this tool is, and selected the winch you have bolted to your rig now, that's great. All I want to do is put out some good information, not criticize anyone's decisions.
Back to the winch...
Bear in mind that as stated in the Recovery Bible, most people don't have a clue as to what the actual weight of their rig is as it sets on the trail loaded with gas, tools, equipment, food, camping gear, people, etc., etc. Also, the effective weight of a stuck rig is often more than 1.5 times the Gross Vehicle Weight used for selecting a winch size. On my own rig, the effective weight could easily reach 10,000-15,000 pounds.
Add to this the fact that the MINIMUM BREAKING STRENGTH of wire rope applies ONLY to a NEW, UNUSED rope. You must figure in a Design Factor, such as the industry standard of "5" to determine the safe work load for a given wire rope. That would be like taking a brand new 5/16" 7X19 Galvanized Steel Cable rated for a minimum (or nominal) breaking strength of 9,800 pounds and dividing that by 5 to end up with a safe work load of 1,960 pounds. Figure in the quality of the rest of the hardware, how the hook is attached to the cable, the age and actual condition of the cable and you can see how convoluted this all gets and why it is so hard to make a good decision.
Ultimately though, the question gets back to, "so what winch do I buy?" Again, in the real world I've seen a lot of guys with 8,000 pound winches that seem to do just fine. As I said, I like my 9.5Ti. Would a 12,000 pound winch be better? Not to me considering the additional 47 pounds of weight it would add to the front end of my Jeep (136lbs. versus 89lbs.). I guess like a lot of other things there are compromises that will be made but it is important to understand what they are and how you arrived at that decision.
A winch is a great recovery tool but it's gotta work when needed and it can kill you if you're not careful.
jfrabat
New member
The way I see it, it's simple. For example, the Warn M8000 (according to the Warn site) pulls as follows:
First Layer: 8,000 lbs
Second Layer: 7,280 lbs
Third Layer: 6,670 lbs
Fourth Layer: 6,230
Now, the Jeep weights about 4~4.5K lbs. What kind of winching do you plan to do? If you are deep in mud, you need more than closer to 6~7K lbs of pulling power. If it's just to pull you over an obstacle, you dont need that much (maybe 5K is enough for that pull).
From this point of view, the M8000 should be enough for your aplication. The issue to me comes more from the duty cycle. If you need to winch often, the M8000 can overheat, making you have to wait between pulls. If you just need a couple of pulls on each ride, the M8000 will do just fine. But if you need to continusly winch on your ride (call it Moab or, as in my case, constant stucks in mud), you may want to go for something with a higher duty cycle.
In all honesty, I think the M8000 will do just fine for more than 80% of the wheelers. The entry level warn tends to be competitive with the mid-tier winches from other brands. But like someone here already said, your winch is your last line of defense, so I rather have a bit of overkill (then again, having a Warn is like having an insurance that the winch will work regardless of conditions on the trail).
First Layer: 8,000 lbs
Second Layer: 7,280 lbs
Third Layer: 6,670 lbs
Fourth Layer: 6,230
Now, the Jeep weights about 4~4.5K lbs. What kind of winching do you plan to do? If you are deep in mud, you need more than closer to 6~7K lbs of pulling power. If it's just to pull you over an obstacle, you dont need that much (maybe 5K is enough for that pull).
From this point of view, the M8000 should be enough for your aplication. The issue to me comes more from the duty cycle. If you need to winch often, the M8000 can overheat, making you have to wait between pulls. If you just need a couple of pulls on each ride, the M8000 will do just fine. But if you need to continusly winch on your ride (call it Moab or, as in my case, constant stucks in mud), you may want to go for something with a higher duty cycle.
In all honesty, I think the M8000 will do just fine for more than 80% of the wheelers. The entry level warn tends to be competitive with the mid-tier winches from other brands. But like someone here already said, your winch is your last line of defense, so I rather have a bit of overkill (then again, having a Warn is like having an insurance that the winch will work regardless of conditions on the trail).
phall92139
New member
Hmmm, I dunno. My '03 Rubicon's GVW is 4,600lbs. I've added bumpers, tire carrier, winch, full body armor, suspension lift, bigger tires and wheels, full roll cage, and a heavier battery. Off-roading I typically carry a pretty complete tool bag, recovery gear bags (shackles, snatch blocks, chain, straps, and other gear), a HiLift Jack and accessories, Pull-Pal, fire extinguishers plus on-board fire suppression system, spare fluid and parts, not counting a passenger and my fat arse. I bet loaded for bear, my rig easily tips the scales at 5,500lbs.
According to Billavista's Recovery Bible a simple extraction of my rig with no damage and on level ground but stuck in mud would go something like this...
Now I've never been stuck in the mud. Don't like to play in it. Also, my winch has always done the job of getting me out of bad situations without exception. So, I am willing to accept that there must be some sort of disconnect between book knowledge and practical application but I do believe that (1) most rigs on the trail are actually heavier than their owners realize, and (2) more force is required for extraction than most realize.
Yes? No? Where am I going wrong here?
According to Billavista's Recovery Bible a simple extraction of my rig with no damage and on level ground but stuck in mud would go something like this...
- A pull of 100% of LW will be required if the truck is stuck to a depth of the sidewall on the tires = 5,500 pounds.
- A pull of 200% of LW will be required if the truck is stuck to the hubs = 11,000 pounds.
- A pull of 300% of LW will be required if the truck is stuck to the frame = 16,500 pounds.
Definitely NOT the 6,000-7,000 pounds of pulling force you infer for deep mud recovery.
Add to this Damage Resistance and/or Grade (Slope) Resistance and the figures can go up even more.
Now I've never been stuck in the mud. Don't like to play in it. Also, my winch has always done the job of getting me out of bad situations without exception. So, I am willing to accept that there must be some sort of disconnect between book knowledge and practical application but I do believe that (1) most rigs on the trail are actually heavier than their owners realize, and (2) more force is required for extraction than most realize.
Yes? No? Where am I going wrong here?
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jfrabat
New member
For some good winch reading, I suggest an old article called "Winches in Hell" by Moab Jeeper (google it up). Basically, the Warn and Superwinch finished neck to neck (Warn won by a hair), with Harbor Freight (IIRC) coming in in 3rd place (all others did not survive the test).
As for the mud, I have winched myself up a slope with mud up to the sidewalls without having to spool out all the cable (had at least 2 layers on the drum) with my Superwinch EPi 9.0. According to the respective web sites, this is the pull capacity per layer for these 2 winches:
Layer
Layer Superwinch EPi9.0 Warn M8000
1 9,000 8,000
2 8,190 7,280
3 7,500 6,670
4 7,010 6,2305 6,570 N/A
By the way, this Warn with 9,000 lbs capacity had no problems geting this Jeep out; notice that there's still line on the drum (a couple of layers):
That's a pretty heavy Jeep, as it has 39.5 tires and a bunch of other stuff (winch, hard top, I6, and a bunch of other goodies).
As for the mud, I have winched myself up a slope with mud up to the sidewalls without having to spool out all the cable (had at least 2 layers on the drum) with my Superwinch EPi 9.0. According to the respective web sites, this is the pull capacity per layer for these 2 winches:
Layer
Layer Superwinch EPi9.0 Warn M8000
1 9,000 8,000
2 8,190 7,280
3 7,500 6,670
4 7,010 6,230
By the way, this Warn with 9,000 lbs capacity had no problems geting this Jeep out; notice that there's still line on the drum (a couple of layers):
That's a pretty heavy Jeep, as it has 39.5 tires and a bunch of other stuff (winch, hard top, I6, and a bunch of other goodies).
JeepMonkey
New member
Not trying to add another log on the fire here, but........When considering the pull weight capacity, I'm assuming we're talking about a completely dead-stick Jeep? I would think that if you're pulling yourself out of a mud hole, then you're also probably going to be using your drive wheels if possible. Wouldn't this, in the end, put less weight on the winch?
phall92139
New member
Hey, don't worry about logs on the fire. We're just having a discussion, I hope. I am curious as how information contained in Billavista's Recovery Bible, based upon solid mechanical engineering principals pan out in real world application, that's all. Just sharing thoughts, ideas, and experiences here. No harm, no foul.
According to the source for my example the Jeep in question would have wheels that are free to turn but not grabbing traction so they would add very little to the equation, one way or the other.
To pull your free wheeling rig on a hard level surface requires a force equal to 1/10 of the load weight (your fully loaded rig). If you are on a softer surface suck as grass or grave it takes a force 1/3 the load weight. This is called SURFACE RESISTANCE.
The other factor is DAMAGE RESISTANCE, defined as a pull of 2/3 LW will be required to move if the wheels cannot rotate (as if the brakes were fully applied), the pull required to overcome the resistance (drag) the truck id 2/3 or 67% of the LW. Damage resistance includes surface resistance (i.e. you only use one or the other)
