Tom the Peeper just won't go away!

Lady, don't shoot anyone unless they have illegally entered your home and you feel threatened. Shooting them in your yard, or through a window could land you in jail, with a lawsuit, or both - even if it is a pellet gun or even a slingshot.

I second what Jeep90 said about the pellet gun. You be better off just letting Zeb kick his @$$!!!


Mingez, oh Mingez. I wish I had less going on here, but I'll have to reply later.
 

TwistedCopper said:
Mingez, oh Mingez. I wish I had less going on here, but I'll have to reply later.

I thought you'd like that one. I'm sure it's KILLING you that you don't have time to respond. :lol: :twisted:
I'm sure you'll have some really good points in your next post. Just remember, I'm playing devil's advocate... I like guns...for hunting.

All I'm saying is that it's not a Panacea for curbing crime. I just don't think it helps as much as people think, and it definetly doesn't hinder as much as others think. The truth of the debate lies somewhere in the middle of what both extremes profess.

I think truly that we both probably have some truths to the opinions that we have on this very wacky topic.

I hope you know my comments about the "NEXT" were all in jest, I was just talking S*%T and being competitive. But play nice now TC my most formidable friend!! :twisted:
 
Lady forget shooting this guy. Ill lend you the pin dot camera. put it on the most likely window ledge, Open the curtains and let him look in. Get his picture. Once you know who it is (probably your neighbor) you can kick his f____ing ass in. If you piss him off he could go from coward to nut. Get his picture and it will all be over.
 
mingez said:
That statement was there to refute the Illegal arms vs. Legal arms arguement. It doesn't matter whether the place in question is Oakland vs. 'Small town" Texas. Oakland has a high percentage of armed citizenry, be it legal or illegal, and yet crime remains a problem. It's not a sufficient deterrent for criminals. Now for me (a non-criminal) yeah, it's a deterrent, but I'd never break into a person's house. I'm not looking for a drug fix, or going hungry due to poverty, or whatever motivates most CRIMINALS. I don't have the same kind of motivations that a criminal might have. Thus, your attempt at using my statement against my arguement is pointless.
BUT, as an idiot criminal, I didn't know you were strapped-which is my point. Where I'm from, a guy wouldn't even consider it....period.

I disagree. I know, what a shocker!!! That statement, wether or not you want to add demographics, statistics, or hallucinations - makes a valid point that someone is more likely to enter a home illegally when the belief is the homeowner is unarmed, and is unlikely to enter if there is a strong possibility that someone inside is armed. Armed legally or illegally, if someone knows or thinks you probably could be armed, they will be deterred.

I'm just stating the fact that the theory ... is not necessarily true...that's all.
huh? JK! It's not a theory, it is a simple fact. I demonstrated that fact with the general overall findings of the FBI. If you dissect and characterize crime types... well like I said earlier, you can prove anything you desire.
Anywhoo, I think where your logic is flawed is that, as a percentage, guns are bigger killers than say: trashbags and other house hold items.
Of course they are, they are weapons, BUT that was referring to accidents, not overall deaths. Again fuzzy math (sorry I couldn't help it) hehehe

A gun's sole purpose for being, is to KILL.
Hunting (don't even compare the two), Sport shooting (It is an olympic sport).

But I do agree with your "Keep mother government out of my bathtub" logic. Yes, it's true we don't need bigger government. In past debates, this is where you and I have always agreed.
We just can't seem to agree on where to draw the line :?
The problem is, you can't trust that the general populace is smart enough, and responsible enough to use firearms responsibly. They are an armed citizenry, but not a TRAINED and armed citizenry. They, the average Joe don't have the ablity to make split-second decisions about killing.
This, Mingez is where the liberal comes out of you like vodka from a drunk on Saturday morning...
Why can I, you, or we not trust the people in our society? We trust them with automobiles, liquor, power tools, hydrocloric acid, pit bulls, and scarily enough... even voter cards :lol:
This takes me back to the government stepping out of it's bounds. I think you give the law abiding general populous too little credit. Besides, where does it end? Laws based on the government doubting society's abilities are nothing short of socialism and have no place in this country.

And of note, the crime rate in all NON RTC states between 1992 and 1997, the violent crime rate dropped by 24.8% in states enforcing strict concealed carry laws and no-issue laws compared to an 11.4% decline in states with lax or weak concealed carry laws.
In many of the non RTC states, the percentage of dropping was much higher. And the Crime index drop was an even bigger percentage than the violent crime numbers.
Here's a very well done chart showing and illustrating the above stats. This one is specifically for NY, but at the bottom you can go to all of the Non RTC states and check out there stats, ie Cali etc.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

Bigger drops in crime index happened in non RTC states, than ever did in most RTC states. So, how do you explain that? Who knows? All I'm saying is, the crime rate ebbs and flows, and and armed citizenry hasn't changed anything.
The nation`s violent crime rate has decreased every year since 1991 and in 2002 hit a 23-year low. In the same period, 17 states adopted and 13 states improved RTC laws.

RTC states have lower violent crime rates, on average: 24% lower total violent crime, 22% lower murder, 37% lower robbery, and 20% lower aggravated assault.

The five states with the lowest violent crime rates are RTC states. (Data: FBI)

You are right, Mingez, I can't explain (nor do I have the time to verify, but I trust those stats are valid) why the statistics are so wide and varied, but the fact remains that in areas that are well known for their armed citizens, strong courts, and RTC laws, crime is lower.
There are too many factors to it, other than to say we need MORE guns in the hands of your average citizen. It's laws, parents, poverty, education, that's where you have to do the work. It's just not THAT simple.
There are many factors to the cause of crime, just as people have many different motives to do all sorts of things. You will never be able to get rid of poverty, addiction, or criminals. The best we can do is to deter them and when that doesn't work, shoot.

Not so long next time, mingez! It took forever to answer all that (might be the longest post I ever made). Sully could've got at least another 1000 on his post count with that one hehehehe
 

Transmission Cooler GVW?

You want to know why crime is going down. Crime reduction units. I personaly know someone who is a cop on the crime reduction unit in NYC. What is thier job. To look at arrests and see if the criminal is being charged with a higher crime that he should be. He runs around getting DA's and officers to lower the charges to something less. His biggest thing is reducing felonys to misdemenors. Why? So the mayor looks better and the city saves money on incarceration. The mayors crime rate reduces as he runs around boasting about how hes keeping hardcore crime down and the criminals get off easy. Isnt that a good idea. So when a politition says hes reducing crime he sure is literaly.
 
Axles

Crime reduction units - that's reassuring. Well so much for statistics & fuzzy math... it's probably all BS anyway (both of the stats Mingez and I posted):roll:

Baltimore hired Ed Norris from the NYPD as BCPD Commissioner because of the "success" NYC has had with crime. He ended up getting promoted to head the State police. He was fired a couple of months later 'cause the found he was using money from a city fund to wine & dine his mistress.

Reading your post Joe, I think it may have worked out best for Maryland this way.

Schools are doing similar things with "No child left behind", but that is a whole 'notha can...
 

Hunting supplies have cameras to photograph game in the woods. You could use this also.
 
I'm just stating the fact that the theory ... is not necessarily true...that's all.
huh? JK! It's not a theory, it is a simple fact. I demonstrated that fact with the general overall findings of the FBI. If you dissect and characterize crime types... well like I said earlier, you can prove anything you desire.

Aha TC, but that works both ways. The same could be said of your claims and numbers. You can find stats to back up whatever you want!!! Mine come from the exact same source as you!! (The FBI UC reports.)

This, Mingez is where the liberal comes out of you like vodka from a drunk on Saturday morning...
Why can I, you, or we not trust the people in our society? We trust them with automobiles, liquor, power tools, hydrocloric acid, pit bulls, and scarily enough... even voter cards
This takes me back to the government stepping out of it's bounds. I think you give the law abiding general populous too little credit. Besides, where does it end? Laws based on the government doubting society's abilities are nothing short of socialism and have no place in this country.

But you see, I don't trust everyone with autos, acid and pit bulls. Where's the line?? There needs to be more stringent guidelines for all of these potentially dangerous pieces of equipement.
I don't think criminals and stupid people should be able to obtain guns... any more than alcoholics and the mentally retarded should be allowed to drive cars.

Who should be allowed to obtain firearms then? All law abidding adults-- I'll assume you'll say.
How about a gang member with a clean record? They exist you know.
Or an islamic fundementalist with a clean record.
Foreigners now turned US citizen.
People with IQ's less than 105.
I think it's pertinent that people with guns need to be qualified to use them. Call me crazy, but I meet people everyday that the thought of them carrying firearms is just scary and psychotic. I meet people in auto's that shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car...ever.

Remember, guns are okay by me, that's not the issue...I'm just suggesting the alternative view....

Nice one about the vodka comment BTW, that was funny. I'll remember that when you send me my Moral Majority invitation to your militia meeting. Hail Hitler!!! Heehehehehehehe I had to dude...you know that. :lol:
 
Where else do you sell stuff?

mingez said:
Aha TC, but that works both ways. The same could be said of your claims and numbers. You can find stats to back up whatever you want!!! Mine come from the exact same source as you!! (The FBI UC reports.)
I agree completely, and I'm getting tennis elbow from this statistics volley anyhow.


But you see, I don't trust everyone with autos, acid and pit bulls. Where's the line?? There needs to be more stringent guidelines for all of these potentially dangerous pieces of equipement.
I don't think criminals and stupid people should be able to obtain guns... any more than alcoholics and the mentally retarded should be allowed to drive cars.
First of all all the above groups you labeled are now simply referred to as the "disadvantaged". You should have know that, and good liberal should be down with the latest PC.:lol:

Who should be allowed to obtain firearms then? All law abidding adults-- I'll assume you'll say.
How about a gang member with a clean record? They exist you know.
Or an islamic fundementalist with a clean record.
Foreigners now turned US citizen.
People with IQ's less than 105.
I think it's pertinent that people with guns need to be qualified to use them. Call me crazy, but I meet people everyday that the thought of them carrying firearms is just scary and psychotic. I meet people in auto's that shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car...ever.
Well I believe any US citizen (natural or naturalized) who is not a felon or currently being tried for a felony should be able to obtain a firearm, unless there is mentall illness.
As far as the gang member, if he is of legal age and has a clean slate then hell yes.Islamic fundamentalist, if the same apply then yes there too.
As to the IQ, so long as it is not related to a mental illness or legal mental handicap then yes.
As to learning to use them, I'd be all for a mandatory safety course. I had to take one for my hunting license and it was excellent.
 

Mingez your not crazy. I owned a hardware store for the last 16 years adnd I wouldnt let the average person own a nail clipper neverless a gun. Doctors, Lawyers, engineers,contractors I have seen then all at my counter and watched them try to explain something or screw something together. What a bunch of morons this country is becoming. people dont take the time to learn nothing. And we cant control our tempers with road rage and waitng in line.
 
joejeepny..........remember that the next time you walk into that some doctors office and try to describe the twisting, sort of empty, sometimes sharp pain that is somewhere in your abdomen. same concept different profession. if he had a hard time screwing something together, maybe you would have a hard time removing someones tonsils.

just food for thought. :wink:
 
mingez wrote:
Aha TC, but that works both ways. The same could be said of your claims and numbers. You can find stats to back up whatever you want!!! Mine come from the exact same source as you!! (The FBI UC reports.)

I agree completely, and I'm getting tennis elbow from this statistics volley anyhow.

Opps, I didn't see your post previous to that...sorry. Just call me Mr. Redundancy.

First of all all the above groups you labeled are now simply referred to as the "disadvantaged". You should have know that, and good liberal should be down with the latest PC.

I got the memo this morning from headquarters and the correct term for the whole lot of disadvantaged folk, is now supposed to be: "Karmatically challeged." I like it, it has a sort of "hippie-neauvous" kind of feel. You know, cause we are all a bunch of hemp wearing birkenstock clad pot smokers. Hee hee.

Well I believe any US citizen (natural or naturalized) who is not a felon or currently being tried for a felony should be able to obtain a firearm, unless there is mentall illness.
As far as the gang member, if he is of legal age and has a clean slate then hell yes.Islamic fundamentalist, if the same apply then yes there too.
As to the IQ, so long as it is not related to a mental illness or legal mental handicap then yes.
As to learning to use them, I'd be all for a mandatory safety course. I had to take one for my hunting license and it was excellent.

Wow, I'm shocked...you sound like a stinkin' pinko! I must say I agree with that last statement, except the IQ part. Maybe not IQ per say, but stupid people. Islamic fundamentalists and gang members, so long as they have a clean record and do the proper training, should definetly be able to possess a firearm.

I'm down as long as the testing and training is stringent.


You see, we can find some middle ground. But I still don't think guns are the answer, I also don't necessarily think they are the problem.

Good show, good debate you make several excellent points TC. And we kept it civil (not that you and I don't usually do so) Probably because we know what the other is going to say before we even type it. And partially, depending on the subject, I have a little libertarian in me...

Mingez your not crazy. I owned a hardware store for the last 16 years adnd I wouldnt let the average person own a nail clipper neverless a gun. Doctors, Lawyers, engineers,contractors I have seen then all at my counter and watched them try to explain something or screw something together. What a bunch of morons this country is becoming. people dont take the time to learn nothing. And we cant control our tempers with road rage and waitng in line.

Joe, here is where you and I agree, and TC and I disagree. I just don't have the faith in the average human I suppose. Just been let down countless amounts of times and I'm "Gun" shy. (Waka waka waka.)
 

jeep90 said:
joejeepny..........remember that the next time you walk into that some doctors office and try to describe the twisting, sort of empty, sometimes sharp pain that is somewhere in your abdomen. same concept different profession. if he had a hard time screwing something together, maybe you would have a hard time removing someones tonsils.

just food for thought. :wink:

Yeah, but practicing medicine without a license and proper education is illegal.

Buying a potentially deadly nail gun without proper training and education isn't.

It's available to anyone over 18 years of age.
 

I'm down as long as the testing and training is stringent.
I think a safety course for RTC permits are a no-brainer, and maybe for merely purchasing a firearm, but I think it is hard enough to buy a gun today (at least in Maryland).

The only other restrictions I am for are if there is a criminal record (felony) or mental illness (like being checked into the Nut Hut). Some liberals would say that taking anti-depressants would qualify as a history of mental illness, but that would disqualify half the population so I disagree.

I have a little libertarian in me...
I hope the libertarian overtakes the liberal. You've heard me say before, I am less of a conservative and more of a constitutionalist which is what the libertarians are mostly about. Problem with that political party is they are too literal and seem like whacko s to most people -even me at times.

Joe, here is where you and I agree, and TC and I disagree. I just don't have the faith in the average human I suppose.
Yup, definately. I also think that loading, cleaning, & shooting a firearm are simple. An idiot can do it. Being safe with it is another story, which is why I would submit to the limitations above.

I believe it is not only our right to keep and bear arms, but it is our responsibility - To protect our homes, our families, and to protect our country and constitution from tyranny. We owe it to our founding fathers and veterans that died for this freedom/right that is threatenend on a daily basis.
******
I'm out!
 
laneiac said:
You are allowed to shoot someone if they break into your house. Period. If they intend to cause bodily harm to you, you are free to protect yourself at all costs, including killing the SOB. Dont want to freak you out Lady, but you need to protect yourself. TC had a good idea, get a nice little shotgun and do a little practicing. Load it up with some bird shot and WHAMO! He will get one hell of a wake up call.

No offense, but in this day and age, if you shoot someone and don't kill them, they're gonna take everything you have in a civil lawsuit. Ya'll have seen "cops" when it's filmed in Memphis, right? That city is a cesspool now and a memphis cop told me if someone is in your house you shoot them, and if it doesn't kill them shoot them again. I'm not trying to scare you but this guy could be a complete nutcase (or he might be some challenged person who wouldn't hurt a fly). If he is a nutcase you never know when he might get drunk or wound up on meth and lose that little bit that's only made him a watcher to this point. Get a gun, learn to use it, and if the guy breaks in, you can protect yourself. Living with yourself for shooting this guy isn't gonna be as hard as dying or getting raped. You don't shoot someone in the knees, you shoot them in the head.....twice. I used to have a website on my computer that had all of these criminals who sued their victims after they were hurt WHILE COMMITING THE CRIME. These criminals all WON their cases. Crazy world, and the cops are great for taking a report after the crime has already been commited. They're doing the best they can, but they can't be everywhere at once. Get a gun, LEARN TO USE IT (nothing's more danngerous than somone who's armed and has no idea what they're doing) and get some peace of mind. You can take care of yourself.
 
Looking for Historical Insurance

Day 1. A Rottweiler dog bites a man's hand.

Day 2. That man dies.

Day 3. Interested observers, some of whom might dislike dogs, conclude that dog bites are fatal; therefore, the government must restrict lap-dog ownership. The government should also outlaw assault-dog ownership, with an exception for federally licensed Rottweiler collectors/dealers. None of them, as we all know, would ever go berserk and release a pack of saber-toothed Rottweilers into a nearby Walmart.

Day 4. Based on the death of our man and others who have died under like circumstances, statisticians (aka: voodoo mathematicians), some of whom might dislike dogs, publish statistically valid tables and graphics which “prove” dog bites to be fatal. Therefore, draconian restrictions on Rottweiler ownership are a good thing.

Other statisticians (also voodoo mathematicians), some of whom might like dogs, and who are in the employ of the NRA (National Rottweiler Association) counter by publishing their own statistically valid tables and graphics. These tables and graphics “prove” that in states where Rottweiler ownership has been uncontrolled, death by wolf-bite has decreased over time. Therefore, un-restricted Rottweiler ownership is a good thing. The government should rescind Rottweiler ownership restrictions.

Day 5. The Coroner releases the results of the autopsy performed on the man bitten by the Rottweiler. That man died because of a massive brain hemorrhage. The Rottweiler dog bite was purely coincidental and causally unrelated to the death of the man.

The lessons to be learned by wannabe statisticians:

(1) Do not believe everything you read. Especially that written-published by an individual or organization with an axe to grind.

(2) Beware of the “post hoc ergo propter hoc” (after this; therefore, because of this.) trap. Correlation is not necessarily causation: the fallacy of coincidental correlation.

(3) Ninety-five percent of all statistics are made up – to include this statistic. :D

Day 6. Gadget restates his advice: shooting an intruder is to put yourself in serious legal jeopardy. In some jurisdictions and circumstances, a pellet gun will be considered a lethal weapon. The shooter could end up in the middle of the same legal minefield as might be caused by use of a traditional firearm.

You don't believe me? Smart move! You should not believe me. I repeat: DO NOT BELIEVE ME! I am merely a name on the INTERNET, letters on a monitor screen, a faceless entity who might or might not possess the credentials to authoritatively address this issue. Perhaps, like a few others around here.

What to do? Where to go?

Call your District Attorney. Do not call the police; Uncle Ernie, the plumber, Oprah, or Dr. Phil because they are not authoritative sources of the required information. They don't have the power of prosecution. The DA does have that power. Call your DA and ask about the laws and scenarios which speak to citizen use of deadly force.

Be sure to ask the DA about the legal niceties of the following scenarios:

1. While lying in bed, you become aware of a peeping Tom outside of your home. He is looking through your window. Are you empowered to shoot Mr. Peepers?

2. You discover an un-armed intruder in your kitchen. The intruder is stuffing your stash of “Blimpie”sandwiches into a pillowcase with the obvious intent of committing the heinous crime of Blimpie-napping (property theft). Are you empowered to shoot the sandwich snitch?

3. You discover an armed intruder in your kitchen. The intruder brandishes a butcher knife, approaches you in a menacing way and threatens bodily harm. Are you empowered to shoot Mr. Cleaver?

The DA or A-DA will be reluctant to answer your questions. Press the issue.

That telephone call just might prove to be an educational experience.

Leave the combat gunplay to sworn peace officers.

Gadget
 
OK, my previous post was before I got to read this whole thread. Nice debate there over the gun kontrol issue by the way. Lady, the dogs, cameras etc are all great ideas and would probably work and get rid of this guy. I still say buy a gun, learn to use it, and you'll always have the peace of mind that you will be able to defend yourself if the need arises. Guns used for self defense are just an insurance policy. On the gun kontrol thing, the problem with having a "mandatory test" to ensure people are worthy of owning a firearm...... WHO MAKES THE TESTS? You get John Kerry, Feinstein, or Kennedy having anything to do with these tests and NO one would pass them. That's the problem most people have with assault weapons ban too. What's an assault weapon? Who says Ted Kennedy isn't going to redefine an "assault weapon' as a remington 1100? Gun control opens doors to more gun control, until we eventually end up with the Aussies and the Brits. You say I'm paranoid, I say I'm thinking ahead and doing my best to protect my rights. A "gun owners test" is right there with the literacy tests used to keep blacks from voting. Easy to take peoples' rights away when you get people to agree to have to "pass a test" to keep their rights. If someone is stupid enough to go for that idea they're not too bright and I'd just assume them not have a gun around me, but that's kind of a loop, isn't it? Test for concealed carry, great, people need to be trained if they are going to be carrying a loaded gun in public places, but test just for ownership, not on your life.
 

1) No way no how.
2) Still a no, but the states attorney may not prosecute you depending on how you articulate the belief you had your well-being was in danger.
3) Yes, because there hopefully you will be a fear for your life and/or well-being and you are permitted to defend yourself if thst is the case. Now if the guy drops the knife and runs out the door that no longer applies so shooting him in the back is out of the question. And no dragging him back inside will not work.
Police can answer this question because we are trained on how to handle these calls, since we are the ones who respond to the scene and must decide whether or not to make an arrest. The rule goes that if a person is in fear for his life or well-being and their is grounds to believe there was a fear for their life or well being, then no crime has been committed. If its questionable police will have the states attorney respond to the scene and they decide to arrest or not. Once thats done there will be a grand jury hearing, which the states attorney uses a random selection from the public to decide whether or not to contune with a trial or to drop the charges based on the grand jurys decision. That is how things are pretty much handled here in that situation, but again states vary by rules and procedures. Hope this helps your Lady.
Dropseys
 
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