Timing on 97 TJ is off HELP!!!

[Micah Chambers]

Ok I have the same 97 4.0 auto trany TJ P.O.S. I have been dealing with for 7mo. now! I have put a new timing chain on it and it is acting like its not timed right. It will not crank only act like it will then backfire through throttle body. When I installed the chain I removed the cover and valve cover and distributor. when I installed it I made sure the cam pin was at 1 oclock and the #1 cylinder valves were closed and I was at top dead center on #1 cylinder. I then installed new chain with dots lining up perfectly and reinstalled distributor and the button is pointing to #1. I have double and triple checked all my wires and the covers off now and everything is lining up where it should according to manual's WHY THE F ISN'T IT STARTING!!!!!!!!!!!!:x:x:x:x:x and why is it sounding like its out of time??? I have taken down and rechecked every thing lines up perfect!! Can any one PLEASE help me. Oh I also have new PCM crank sensor cam sensor plugs wires and cap and button. And all wires are hooked up on cap from front to back 153624. Oh and earlier today had it hooked up to the new snap on computer and it showed it to be 68 degrees off time and that the TPS was bad.The cam gear was 180 out from my crank.

 

[Shephard10]

Same thing happened to me with an aftermarket engine. Changed everything, position sensors, even the PCM. Turns out the crank and cam were 180* off...

 

[Gregorypaul]

What symptoms did you have before you installed the timing chain? It is impossible to be 180* off on a 4.0 timing chain. Could possibly be off 1 tooth on the timing set, or more than likely 1 tooth off on the distributor gear.

 

[69jeepcj]

I just went through this type of thing on my jeep. Its a chevy motor, but what you are experienceing sounds just like what happened to me. Do you instructions call for you to line up the dots on the cam gear at 6 and the crank at 12. They fail to tell you this is done for easier installation, and is actually TDC for #6 and 180* out, you have to rotate the engine 1 whole turn after install. Your cam gear turns half that of the crank, so a 360 rotation will put your crank back in the same 12oclock position but you cam gear will now be at the 12 also. This is TDC for #1 where you are now is TDC for #6. Again this is on a chevy motor. took me about a week of reading and asking questions to figure it out. My motor did the same as your at first, after rotating it 360* BEFORE dropping in the distributor all was good.. Good luck

 

[Micah Chambers]

What symptoms did you have before you installed the timing chain? It is impossible to be 180* off on a 4.0 timing chain. Could possibly be off 1 tooth on the timing set, or more than likely 1 tooth off on the distributor gear.

Every thing started when I was driving it a tear ago. It had no oil pressure so I changed oil pump after a checked all compression and it was fine. I drove it 5 miles down rd. And it lost all power and sounded like a lawnmower. I was told it jumped time so I changed the chain. And it still did the same till a reversed the plugs on top of distributor then it ran fine. I knew then it was 180 out but it ran fine so I left it but it eventually put the computer in safe mode and had no fire so I changed all sensors and PCM and it worked fine for about 2mo. Then no fire again so I replaced PCM again since that worked last time and I moved timing chain to what I thought was right but now it's out. So tore down again and removed chain distributor and started from scratch like I was rebuilding engine. I placed cam pin in the 1 o'clock position and crank to tdc and replaced distributor so the button points to #1 on cap. This where I'm at now and my wires are 153624 clockwise on cap. Only thing I can think of that may be wrong is the cam is sitting wrong and I need to turn it 180 and reset distributor. Then see it all will line up after I rotate crank one rotation.

 

[Micah Chambers]

Same thing happened to me with an aftermarket engine. Changed everything, position sensors, even the PCM. Turns out the crank and cam were 180* off...

How did u find that out? When u looked at the gears? And ur cam gear was the pin on the bottom left and the other hole at top right or vise versa when the dots lined up on the gears?

 

[69jeepcj]

Take out your dist, turn crank 360* and put dist back in. this will put crank in same position but turn cam gear 180*. I think You are 180* out. I tried to switch my wires as well on the dist, it ran, but not right until I rotated the motor 360* and put the wire back the way they were.
LISTEN TO THE TJ GUYS THOUGH BEFORE ME, i DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR ENGINES.
but would think they operate on the same principle.

 

[Gregorypaul]

Same.

 

[Micah Chambers]

Same.

When I turn the crank 360 that puts the mark on the cam gear pointing away from the mark on the cam gear. Then I move the distributor to where it's pointing to #1 but won't that keen when I turn the crank 360 again the marks will line up but the distributor will be pointing off #1. Is that right? I thought when ur in time ur marks line up ur distributor is on #1 and TDC

 

[69jeepcj]

I didn't quite understand your question above. If you installed everything according to your directions and it is back together per the directions. At this point STOP! take out the dist and manually turn crank one whole turn (360*) and put the dist back in with rotor pointing at #1 tower on your cap. right now your timing gears are set up 180* out, and your dist is pointing at #1. So you have to rotate the crank to bring your cam gear around 180* which now sets your timing gears to match your dist(TDC for #1). your timing marks on the gears will be pointing oppisite directions when you do this, actually your crank dot will be in the same spot and your cam gear will be in the oppisite direction ( this is the way it should be). They have your install it 180* out so your dots lign up and make the install easier, but once installed you have to put it back to TDC for #1 which is accomplished by turning the crank 360*
That is the part they leave out of their directions. If your dist is pointing at your #1 now, then just pull it and turn the crank and reinstall the dist in the same spot. You ONLY turn the crank one time. You dont take anything back apart, just pull dist, turn crank and put dist back in pointing at number 1 and you should be good. make sure you #1 plug wire is on the number #1 tower if you rerouted your wires on the cap.

 

[Micah Chambers]

I didn't quite understand your question above. If you installed everything according to your directions and it is back together per the directions. At this point STOP! take out the dist and manually turn crank one whole turn (360*) and put the dist back in with rotor pointing at #1 tower on your cap. right now your timing gears are set up 180* out, and your dist is pointing at #1. So you have to rotate the crank to bring your cam gear around 180* which now sets your timing gears to match your dist(TDC for #1). your timing marks on the gears will be pointing oppisite directions when you do this, actually your crank dot will be in the same spot and your cam gear will be in the oppisite direction ( this is the way it should be). They have your install it 180* out so your dots lign up and make the install easier, but once installed you have to put it back to TDC for #1 which is accomplished by turning the crank 360*
That is the part they leave out of their directions. If your dist is pointing at your #1 now, then just pull it and turn the crank and reinstall the dist in the same spot. You ONLY turn the crank one time. You dont take anything back apart, just pull dist, turn crank and put dist back in pointing at number 1 and you should be good. make sure you #1 plug wire is on the number #1 tower if you rerouted your wires on the cap.

Sorry about the confusion what I was asking is if I turn it 360 that will place the time gear mark away from the crank and when I put the distributor back in at #1 when I rotate the crank one more rotation that will line the marks on the gears but won't the distributor be off of #1? I was taught that all marks should line up and the distributor be on #1 for time to be right. Is this motor different.

 

[69jeepcj]

I don't know if the motors are dif or not. I was taught the same as you on setting it. I found my answers on a hot rod site, and remember them saying something about a change in how the factories set the timing marks (did you get new timing gears with your new chain?) and now as a result you have to rotate the crank 360* after you install the chain, and they didn't change the instructions. And they were right in my case. Yes your cam gear will be on the opisite side when you rotate the crank 360*,(this is what you are wanting).

 

[jrbrumley]

The reason for this is that a 4 stroke motor takes 2 revolutions of the crank to fire once. TDC intake and TDC exhaust. The same for all 4 stroke motors.

 

[69jeepcj]

x2 on above. Try it! if it don't work, pull the dist and rotate 360* once more and you will be back to where you are now.. I Bet you money that this will fix it though. I know this is the oppisite of what we were tought, but try it.

 

[69jeepcj]

Hows it coming?? Here is a post I found for a neson, but says to do the same thing.
The valve timing marks, Figs. 13 and 14, do not indicate TDC compression stroke for No. 1 cylinder, which is used for distributor installation. If distributor was removed, install timing chain and sprockets, aligning timing marks, Figs. 13 and 14, then rotate engine until No. 1 cylinder is on compression stroke and camshaft timing mark is 180°from valve timing position shown in illustrations, then install distributor.
This is a 360* rotation.
Here is another.
I talked to a friend of mine who has "mitchell on demand" and saw that the gears actually point towards one another, making mine 180 out. I tore it all down again and turned the cam 180 degrees and reinstalled the cam gear. (you dont have to take off the cam gear.)

To turn the cam gear 180* you turn the crank 360*.

Google search it, there are tons of posts on this.. google something like (car wont start after timing chain install), (am I 180* out after timing chain install)

 

[Micah Chambers]

Hows it coming?? Here is a post I found for a neson, but says to do the same thing.
The valve timing marks, Figs. 13 and 14, do not indicate TDC compression stroke for No. 1 cylinder, which is used for distributor installation. If distributor was removed, install timing chain and sprockets, aligning timing marks, Figs. 13 and 14, then rotate engine until No. 1 cylinder is on compression stroke and camshaft timing mark is 180°from valve timing position shown in illustrations, then install distributor.
This is a 360* rotation.
Here is another.
I talked to a friend of mine who has "mitchell on demand" and saw that the gears actually point towards one another, making mine 180 out. I tore it all down again and turned the cam 180 degrees and reinstalled the cam gear. (you dont have to take off the cam gear.)

To turn the cam gear 180* you turn the crank 360*.

Google search it, there are tons of posts on this.. google something like (car wont start after timing chain install), (am I 180* out after timing chain install)

I moved the crank 360 then replaced distributor on #1 but it still won't crank sounds like it's going to but don't. If I give it gas it will start but it's not right.

 

[69jeepcj]

Ok, leave it there for now... with all of the changes going on it is a good chance you dist position got changed..making your timing off and the no start. loosen your dist, turn it a little (about an 8th to 1/4 inch turns at a time) one direction or another and try to start, if no start turn the other way and see if it will start. if not, then you may be a tooth off on the dist install. check by Finding TDC for #1 again and pull your dist cap and make sure you are pointing dead on #1 tower. double check your wires are not crossed as well. I dont know how much you know about this type of thing. I have to leave soon, so I am leaving some tips.
If you dist is a tooth off, pull the dist and look at the bottom of the shaft. you will see a gear and below the gear is what looks like the end of a flat head screwdriver. Now use a flashlight and look down the hole where the dist go's, their is a rod in there with a slot in it. your dist shaft go's in that slot. That rod in your engine drives the oil pump which is driven by your cam gear. Use a long screwdriver and turn that rod so you can put the dist back in but be one tooth over, and hopfuly pointing dead on #1, If you are just barely off, that can be adjusted when setting the time by turning the dist.
I think at this point you are out of time at the dist, that it won't start.. its hard to put the dist back in the exact same spot. usually gets you close but turning of the dist to set the time is usually needed, and if thats not it then the dist usually has been put in a tooth off.

 

[Bounty__Hunter]

I moved the crank 360 then replaced distributor on #1 but it still won't crank sounds like it's going to but don't. If I give it gas it will start but it's not right.

Sounds like you're close but off one tooth on the distributor gear. You can't hold the distributor to fire on #1 and drop it in, you have to hold it off a bit to account for the twist of the distributor gear. The correct procedure is outlined in the FSM. Don't forget the pin to align the cam position sensor in the distributor.

 

[superj]

69jeepcj saves the day with his experience on having your cam and crank timed 180 out. good job man!!!

 

[Micah Chambers]

Sounds like you're close but off one tooth on the distributor gear. You can't hold the distributor to fire on #1 and drop it in, you have to hold it off a bit to account for the twist of the distributor gear. The correct procedure is outlined in the FSM. Don't forget the pin to align the cam position sensor in the distributor.

Ok I took distributor and moved it counter clock wise about a 1/4 in. and it ran perfect going to back it up one tooth and I should be good. Thanks for ur help