Need help removing NSS on '94 Cherokee

[JamesTheScot]

I have another thread on an intermittent failure to crank problem.

So after looking at nearly everything else, I decided to take the NSS off and examine/clean/replace it.

So I disconnected the harness and got the NSS loose from the transmission.

So as I am pulling the NSS and the wires down through the engine, the harness connector jams up where I can't see it.

I contort my arm and hand up over the transmission and I find what feels like a zip tie or some sort of thing to narrow for the connector or the NSS itself to slide through. And I can't see any way to get some snips or a knife blade up and over and around through there to cut it. So I a stuck now with an NSS swinging about 6 inches below the transmission and the harness connector slid back where I can't see it to reach it.

No way am I going to tow this thing into a shop just to get that thing cut. For the price of a tow, I could just about pay for a new NSS. Needless to say I am so ****ed right now that I could chew through nails. Do the braniacs that design these things not realize what it takes to work on them?

Any ideas how to get the wires free of that tie?

 

[greg92jeepxj]

When it rains it pours . I read and replied to your post regarding your starter issues. I won't question your decision to change the neutral safety switch but hoping that this was not prompted by the no start issue. I once changed a NSS on my dads old '89 cherokee and it wasn't at all fun. That was a good ten years ago. The part was outrageously expensive. It was stuck on the select shaft on the AW4 and gave me hell pulling it off. As I remember , the harness plug is reached from the top by the firewall but yes , it was certainly nice of AMC to zip tie it in place . Might have been to a loop on the transmission to speed installation on the assembly line with no regard for us poor slobs. Chrysler isn't any better , they take their lessons from AMC too. It won't be easy , but when you locate the zip tie or harness ring snap or what is holding it in place , you'll need a pair of long handle long nose pliers to grab it . It was the only I could or I was going to pry it with my brothers king size flat blade screw driver. But when you come back for the second round and in a calmer manner ready to succeed , get a good look at it from top by the firewall where it unplugs . Follow the harness down . One more thing , this did not work for me but it may be worth a try for you . There should be some Phillips screws holding it together so it splits in half. If you have room to work with the now dangling switch , see if you can open it . There are spring detents and grease to lube their movement. If the grease has dried and made the detent movement stubborn , that will cause grief. This may not save aggravation , but may safe $$.
Hope this helps . Best regards , Greg

 

[JamesTheScot]

Greg,

I wasn't intent on replacing the NSS unless I found a problem with it. I was thinking I would take it off and inspect it and maybe clean it up first to rule that out as a possibility since I wasn't getting anywhere with the starter.

I can't see that tie ring at all from the top or bottom of the engine. It feels very stiff and rigid to just be a zip tie and does seem to be mated to the transmission housing somehow. It feels too round and thin to have any kind of opening in the ring itself that one could pull the wiring through. And I see no way I could possibly get to it with a screw driver from either top or bottom. The only way I even know it is there is that my left hand fingertips can just barely feel it.

To make matters worse, one of the four threaded flanges which surround the transmission post broke off. But upon inspection, I think the three remaining flanges will still hold it fine, especially since the adjustment bolt also secures the NSS to the transmission and the post fits so snug through the channel. Am I right or am I screwed?

So if I can't actually reach that plastic ring, am I basically screwed? Even if I open up the NSS where it is hanging and it looks OK, I don't think I could worm the harness connector back up in front of the firewall now. So it kinda feels like I am committed to getting it free somehow if for no other reason than to be able to plug it back in.

So should I just snip the wires, pull it free from both loose ends and then splice them with crimps if the NSS looks OK? I know that any splice is a potential compromise of the circuit, but I wonder if crimps, silicone sealant and a good wrap may do well enough.

If I do need a new NSS, I found this one: http://www.1aauto.com/jeep-neutral-safety-switch/i/1azns00006. But it is about $60 and I've always heard they are over $100 at an absolute minimum, so I am a bit nervous.

Come to think of it, I was looking into new wiring from the battery to the starter and I can't find anything anywhere. Is there a good source for model specific wiring parts for these vehicles? The battery cables I am finding online look nothing like the ones under my hood, particularly on the positive side of the wiring with all the jump offs that I see in the engine compartment.

 

[greg92jeepxj]

At this point , I wouldn't further seek to remove the NSS unless it were proven that it is in fact faulty . If no damage has come to the wiring , proceed to reinstall it. Sorry that a mounting boss has broken but as long as you can remount it using the rest of the mounting bosses , let's hope that will be secure enough for now . It will require an adjustment which basically you just make certain that the starter cranks in park and neutral . Clean out the functional mounting holes and be sure the thread will not cause resistance since your counting on the remaining mounting bosses to hold the NSS secure. Please anti-sieze compound to lube the threads on the mounting bolts to ensure positive tightening. Take care NOT to over tighten the mounting screws. Your going into aluminum , the anti-sieze compound will be beneficial. You can set up the voltmeter on the solenoid wire while someone cranks the starter to adjust the NSS until the new starter is replaced . I will jump to the next thread to discuss that . BTW , if you think that reattaching the broken piece of casting back on the trans for the broken mounting boss , clean it well with brake cleaner first. TIG welding would possibly work if there were enough surface to weld but that is most likely out of the question now since access is limited. It looks like a strong epoxy will have to be used. Surfaces MUST be clean . Perhaps JB weld . For now though . Be certain the NSS is in the PARK position so that you will be able to crank the starter( haven't forgotten , bum starting circuit or starter) . Keep in mind that starter cranking is possible in ANY gear since the NSS will not be reinstalled yet awaiting starter or starting circuit repair. The NSS should have its own ground through its wiring harness so shouldn't be necessary to reinstall for testing purposes yet. If it didn't , a ground wire could be clipped to it and to chassis ground. No worries there. Jumping to the other thread to deal with starting issue. To recap ; make certain NSS is in PARK position to enable cranking and inspect wiring to make certain NSS wiring is ok. Incidently , if it were found necessary to replace the NSS ( heaven forbid at this point , right ?) , you would fish the wiring harness from the bottom , back up to the engine compartment with the aid of a strong piece of string or wire wrapped and tapped for security to pull back up. No problem there , just the joy of finishing removal of harness securing clips . Not fun never forgot either. Simple on paper , I know. Lastly , verify that the solenoid wire is live in crank position with voltmeter set above 12 volts ('15'or 20 depending on your meter) to be certain you can crank the starter . Jumping over to next thread , see ha there. Greg

 

[JamesTheScot]

Update:

That retaining ring which was holding the wiring from the NSS up on top of the transmission was NOT plastic, it was metal of some kind. I found an ever so thin opening in the ring up against the transmission with my fingernail and it made that springy "bloing" noise that stiff wire will make. So after much cussing and scraping of knuckles, I was able to wiggle the plug end free enough to grab and was then able to simply pull the wiring through that opening in the ring by pulling both the NSS end and the plug end downward. For future reference to anyone with the same problem, the orientation of that ring would not allow the NSS and plug to pull free by going upward through the engine compartment. You have to pull it free from underneath the vehicle. And as a practical matter, I don't see much possibility of getting it back in there given the high tension strength of the metal and it's location.

So I took apart the NSS, stripping out one of the screw heads in the process, BTW. Oh, joy! There was some buildup of crud at one end of the copper runs in the plastic side of the NSS housing. It was enough to obscure the copper from view. So if I am guessing right about the orientation of the gear shift to the NSS, that crudded up end may be the Park end of the armature arc. So that build-up might explain a failure to start in Park. But the region that I surmise would then be the Neutral region of the armature arc looked to be relatively clear of crud. But since I could not get the Jeep to start in Neutral, I am guessing that the NSS may not be the problem and I may be back to the starter as Greg suspects.

So, after pulling the NSS off like a frustrated dumbass, it occurs to me that there must be some way to bypass the NSS, which, if done, would either narrow the no-crank condition down to an NSS problem (if it cranks) or eliminate the NSS as a potential problem (if it still won't crank), correct?

The reason I may still need a bypass is that I will be re-installing the NSS into what had been a no-crank condition. So when re-install, is it possible that I may now have a double layered no-crank condition because the NSS is not in adjustment? Can an otherwise operational NSS be so maladjusted when re-installed that the Jeep won't start in either Park or Neutral just because of the maladjustment? Or does the adjustment simply make the NSS work across all gears rather than just some?

Also, is that recess in the innermost copper strip normal? The other strips have gaps in them, but there is a definite recess in that strip that you can see in the picture. So why is the copper recessed there instead of the strip broken? Just seems odd to me.

Which brings me back to the NSS bypass issue. If the NSS is out of adjustment and won't allow the Jeep to start until adjusted, and if I still have a no-crank condition ignoring the NSS, then I will need a bypass simply to continue on with my testing to find out what is causing the original no-crank condition.

So on my Jeep the engine side of the NSS harness is a male connector rather than female, so I will need to attach a lead across pins rather than use a paperclip inserted into sockets. Does anyone know which pins I need to bridge to bypass the NSS? There are 6 pins across 8 sockets - a top row and bottom row of 4 sockets each. Counting top left to bottom right, pins are absent in the #3 and #8 sockets.

 

[greg92jeepxj]

Hey James , took these ipad shots from my 1992 factory service manual . It should give you a good idea for a bypass for testing your starter . I agree that before you go out and get a starter that you know you can at least get the solenoid wire to go live when you turn the key to crank. That is certainly first to do. We'll deal with the NSS once the starter issue is done. I know your jeep is a '94 but I'm hoping the wiring code carries to that year . My guess is that it will . At least the diagram(s) will give insight to what wires perform what function. You can verify operation with the ohm function of your meter on the NSS itself by figuring which wires at what terminals have continuity so you can figure what female terminals to jump on the engine harness side. Please make proper jumpers using solderless terminals that fit comfortably without spreading the connectors and causing problems later when you'll want to get the NSS up and running again . You'll need just one wire and two proper fitting solderless terminal connectors crimped onto the short section of wire just to make a proper jumper for this test . Once it is proven that the solenoid wire goes live when key is cranked , that issue is solved and we can send you to the parts store for a replacement starter. Let's get that in the works and we'll see if the NSS can be salvaged. The stripped screw is the least , the inner terminal strips look ok and can be regreased but am worried about the adjustment nut you held up in the photo that the selector shaft goes through and turns. If you want to get all the spring contacts working again so the switch functions and can work in park position just to get the solenoid wire live for test purposes , that may be better for you as you can plug it back in from under the hood and save more scraped and busted knuckles and less vocal venting for the neighbors ( I am somewhat practiced at that , but I try to keep it to myself. I know the feeling , years of experience at that) . Let us know your feelings on what you'll precede with next , be safe and methodical. If your not certain of a connection and fear shorting and damaging , post us back before so. Hope this helps . Greg

 

[JamesTheScot]

Greg,

So if I am reading the diagram correctly, a lead across B and C would allow any circuit testing which would involve the NSS to proceed as if the NSS were connected and working and the car in Park/Neutral.

Do I have that right?

 

[greg92jeepxj]

I believe that is correct being terminal "C" is a ground and "B" is neutral and I believe "A" is park but not clear in the illustration . If you can give it a try on the NSS while it's off the jeep and see if the re is continuity , meaning the ability of voltage to flow through , Between A and B or C , with the switch physically in park or neutral then that will confirm those are the terminals we need and those are the wires to match on the female plug on the engine side of the harness.
Jumping will be a fast way but if your more comfortable with the switch plugged back in since it's more native and safe electrically , that may be best. We just want to be able to ultimately read voltage at the solenoid wire with your meter when cranking key.
P.S.- sorry that I must be going , got to get back to work . But your posts are welcome in terms of questions or findings and I will look at them tonite . See ya later . Greg

 

[JamesTheScot]

Greg,

I didn't test for continuity using those corresponding sockets on the NSS side of the plug, but that's a great idea. I trusted the diagram and jumped the B and C with my lead. Interestingly though, the plug on the engine side is the male side in my Jeep. But every picture/video I have seen has the female on the engine side. Kinda odd.

I assume it worked based on the fact that I was able to get readings at the solenoid and starter when turning the key. Those findings are in the other thread.

 

[greg92jeepxj]

Thanks for your post . I guess we"ll be working out what to do about the current statue of the NSS and its state in regards to re-installation ( if that will be a problem?) or possibly a replacement ? But I guess we can safely say since there is a reading from the solenoid wire with the key in crank position with the NSS in its PARK position that the fault will be with the starter . Whether that's because of a bad solenoid or starter motor issues such as bad windings on the armature or bad brushes , this will most likely necessitate a whole starter replacement. In the past , it was sometime practical to replace a solenoid such as on a GM style starter since the GM starter motors were once held in high regard but I'm not certain that true of this starter we find on the 4.0 liter. I don't remember if a solenoid was readily available for it or not but it seem to remember I came to the conclusion it was just simpler to,replace the entire starter in all respects. Mine was pricey but had no control over that at the time. Hurricane Sandy saw to that . Wishing you better luck on your price .

 

[JamesTheScot]

Most of the parts stores around here have the whole starter/solenoid unit for less than $70. They all claim to be re-manufactured starters, so I assume they use the housings and rebuild the internals.

So the price isn't bad.

And I have found replacement NSS's for less than $50. At that price, I could always just use the armature and a screw from the new one to rebuild the old. Not sure what happened to the prices on these since a few years ago they were over $300.

 

[greg92jeepxj]

Wow , I shutter to think that's what my dad paid for the NSS I put in his '89 cherokee back then !
if memory serves me , I think that's what it was . Am really hoping you will be able to reuse your original as I believe you will . We know OEM is best and just a little maintenance will restore it now that you know the secret . I know it was a major hassle to extract but will serve you well for time to come . Great feeling you can save money and fix it yourself ! That's what we do , that's why we do it . After the job is done , we can be glad we can count on our jeep once again !