Wish me luck
Tug-n-pull said:
Again, let me be clear.... Many many Americans don't believe in God. Therefore, "God determined that" is not a valid arguement. It's gotta be something more logical and less theological. And the book you speak of... means nothing to me. Doesn't have any validity. I have 6 other books from 6 other religions sitting on my bookshelf that refute everything in there. I don't care if you're a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Christian.. whatever. The sentence "My God says so" just doesn't cut it.
Let us use Nature! Do you at least believe in Nature? Is it natural for two of the same sex to want to have sex? What other mamal on earth has same sex relationships? How can this be a natural act? As for the 6 books you have that refute the bible please let me know what they are and where in any of them that they say Homosexual are right in what they do. Let me know what religion says killing, stealing, adultery, acts of sexual preversion, or any of the big 10 for that matter is ok. Well leave out the on other God before me and the taken of the name in vain. They are orginals that none of the others thought of.
Religion doesn't belong in government either. Nobody's Religion belongs in Government, hence it's separation from it. Church and State go together like Jeepz, and Lowriders.
Here is where I can not see where you get your information from. Take that dollar out of your pocket and read "Who do we Trust" Repete the Pledge and under who is this nation! This country is founded on God. Read the founding documents and take a close look at the monuments and see who show up everywhere in this great countrys goverment! God does. So my friend you God dont belong statement holds no water! He is all over and through our goverment. Like it or not! The God in this country at the founding was not Ali, Budda, or any other than the Christian God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost.
True, but who determines morality? Who determines what is good? Again, it is a value that changes with everyone. And if somebody says God, I'll bang my head into my keyboard. :lol:
The fact is that what is generally accepted changes and evolves with the culture.
The Majority does! We Vote in this nation to settle this and we have courts to make some of the tough calls. But the elected officals are the voices of the people and they are there by our votes. The only reason I leave God out of this is to protect your head for keyboard dammage. Can you honestly say this culture has evolved to a higher state of morality? Jeeze man get a grip on yourself.
Things that used to be generally accepted:
Blacks not being able to use White waterfountains.
Blacks only being allowed in the back of the bus.
Civil Rights are still being fought for. Not just by the Blacks. The tide is turning slowly but it is turning.
Illegal search and seizure by the government.
How can you think that does not go on any more. Taxes are a form of the same. Stock pile up several full auto weapons and a few other items the goverment frowns upon and see if you are able to keep em if they find you have em!
Burning people at the stake for having differing beliefs.
This is going back a ways wouldn't you say. Not that I disagree with such an out pouring of passion! hehhehehehe
Women not being able to vote.
It was considered "obscene" for women to wear pants.
Well we are ahead of much of the world on that one. Many countrys would just kill em for such a thing.
Jews being sent to concentration camps.
And freed by American lives to get em out of the same.
Japanese being sent to American concentration camps.
Pearl Harbor!!!!! Sould we set the Taliban Free among the general population that are in the same over in Cuba now! The Japanese brought that on them selves! Picked the wrong side to fight for.
Slavery.
Have you been out of the city of late. Grow anything in your part of the world? Who is picken the crops? If they are not carrying a Green Card then they might as well be slaves. Treated like slaves and paid like slaves and fear of deportation keeps em picken cause liven like a slave is better than going home.
As you can see, "General Acceptances" change, we evolve, so do valuse of morality. And remember, many people used the Good Book to justify much of the above.
"No that is not As I can see" that is as you can see! Your dawg just does not hunt.
I can not think of a major religion period that will justify your way of thinking. I can not think of a major goverment that stands for how you believe for that matter. Your argument is weak. I am going to be praying for you like it or not cause I still pray no matter what anyone says. I use to live in the big citys of this great land. I was not always in the small town where your way of thinking would be tauned and discouraged if you made them public. I had almost forgotten there were folks like you out there with nothing to stand for with any real solid moral fiber. I am so sorry for you. tug
Tug, is this the way you ALWAYS debate?? Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, but that was not my intent.
However, if you are going to suggest things about me personally, then I suggest you find another topic, because you obviously aren't within the spirit of this thread. That last paragraph is a personal attack, plain and simple, and I expected more from you. Look at TC, he and I disagree, but not once did it degrade to such a lack of maturity as demonstrated in that last post. There is mutual respect. I was shocked by it, because up till this point I veiwed you as a friend with differing veiws, whom I respected and looked forward to reading posts from.
In one post you called my arguement
"weak", told me to
"get a grip on myself", condescended by telling me
"you will pray for me, and I am so sorry for you." Are you kidding me? Exposed you are, more so than a Jackson in a Superbowl, as nobody is buying what you're shoveling.
If you disagree with a point, state the point, then disagree. Don't tell that person they
"Need to get a grip." It's simply uncalled for.
Once the "Wise elderstatesman," who kept things civil, you are now the guy who lit the pilot on a civilized discussion on morality and turned it into a flame session. Aimed specifically at me. Who's next? Anyone else who thinks differently than you? Lanieac? Lady?
So back to the discussion, and I'll try not to stoop to the same level.
You said,
"The Japanese brought it on themselves." You need to put down the "Good book" and pick up a "history book" Mr. Tug. The Japanese that were sent to concentration camps
WERE Americans. Just as much as you or me.
Since you drop the morality card like a Trump to my 4 of hearts, let me point out the fact that you claimed that the
"majority determines morality."
I don't deny this! All I claim is that the Majority attitude towards morality evolves and changes. Do you have the audacity to think the MAJORITY opinion is that Japanese Americans "Had it coming" because their homeland was that of the enemy??
AGAIN, THEY WERE AMERICANS. Where were you're ancestors from? If we go to war with that country, you better be the first to raise his hand for the train ride to camp nowhere, especially after that statement.
You say my claim that 'General Acceptances' change and evolve is false.
Yet, you mention: "Civil Rights are still being fought for. Not just by the Blacks. The tide is turning slowly but it is turning.
You are contradicting yourself within your own post.
"Tide is turning" implies change. So which is it? Things
do or
don't change? Pick a side and stick with it please. (I think that contradicting oneself is the definitive "weak arguement")
If you can't see that we are better off doing away with Slavery, Women's rights, and the Jewish Holocaust, then I don't know if this is the place for us to discuss this. Rarely even the staunchest of Christian rightists would agree with such a thing.
Are you really suggesting that we go back to Slavery? Take away a woman's right to vote? Continue sending people of certain ethnic make up to concentration camps because they are of an undesirable ethnic make up? I know your answer will be "no" but your arguement is attempting to state that changes in morality don't happen.
I mentioned
Jews being sent to Concetration camps as an example of how values of "General Acceptances" change.
Your rebuttle to that is:
"And freed by American lives to get em out of the same." What does that have to do with it?! Many Englishman, and French died too. I was talking about changing tides in values, not the logistics of what ended the Jewish holocaust.
Yes, there are worse places in the world than the US. I love my country, and we are very progressive. (or so I thought)
So, when I suggested: "
General Acceptances" change, we evolve, so do values of morality. And remember, many people used the Good Book to justify much of the above.
Your response was:
"No that is not As I can see" that is as you can see! Your dawg just does not hunt.
Let me make this clear--
The fact that people have different views is EXACTLY MY POINT. Thank you, for helping me cement said point.
I know you may disagree...fine. Understand that I have a different set of values than you. But for the record, I
NEVER condoned murder, stealing, rape or anything you mentioned in your post. So quit claiming that by Not being Christain I support such things, it's ludicrious to suggest that only Christians have morales. I am ONLY against your veiws on Gay issues, and your definition of morality or appropriateness.
I know there is an unwritten rule around here to NOT disagree with you Tug. But when such outrageous proclaimations are made, unsubstatiated, and backed only by personal attack, I can't ignore it. Disagree with me, and debate the topic...fine. I believe in your right to your beliefs...even though you don't believe I have a right to mine... because your god tells you so.
FYI- My huntin' dawg ran past your dawg and retreived that bird free and clear!
Sorry if I offend anyone else on this thread, but all credibility on this thread is compromised by not speaking out. If you think I'm out of line, then read the above quoted post of which I'm referring to and I think (hope) you understand why I couldn't let it go.
--mingez
