Free Speech

[Tug-n-pull]

goood commercial....

:lol: ::Claps her hads and cheers wildly::

Now were gonna talk theology? Woo hooo, I have something slighly interesting to say on this matter, and I will share it tonight. I've done some study on this. I LOVE theology. lol

Twisted, I won't flame you because I understand what you are saying. I'll share tonight unless people don't want to go there.

Lady

Do not be afraid to go there this thread has already taken us to places that I never thought I would see Jeepz go. It is about time to talk about things other than Motorcraft 2150 carbs and what tires work best where. What we all believe and disbelieve are the foundation stones of who and what we are. If anyone finds this thread a problem please by all means do not READ it any more. Cause I can see it getting rather deep from this point on. I previouly made it real clear where I stand on this post and will be more than happy to get in to the deep nitty gritty of it from this point on. I hope you all will be willing to as well. Keep this thread going with an open mind. Keep it from getting into a name calling free for all cause we all have the right to Freedom of Speach. Get on with it now and speak your minds just keep it civil please! tug

 

[TwistedCU]

Yeah, Lady! This is about free speech right? Fire away. Don't worry about "flaming" me if you feel I deserve it. I won't take it personally - I guess I threw the gloves off with that last couple of posts LOL.

I wasn't trying to get into a theology debate, but I would be up for one. As a matter of fact I'd be up for debating just about anything! I was, however, just referring to my source.

 

[mingez]

Remember, it is you who believes homosexuality is a sexual perversion. That is a value that you have placed on it. Many don't share that same opinion. And I don't think pedophilia and homosexuality belong in the same sentence anymore than pedophilia and heterosexuality.

No that would have been God who determined that. Says so in a book I read. Why would homosexuality not be a perversion?
Sounds like a perversion to me.

Again, let me be clear.... Many many Americans don't believe in God. Therefore, "God determined that" is not a valid arguement. It's gotta be something more logical and less theological. And the book you speak of... means nothing to me. Doesn't have any validity. I have 6 other books from 6 other religions sitting on my bookshelf that refute everything in there. I don't care if you're a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Christian.. whatever. The sentence "My God says so" just doesn't cut it.

Religion doesn't belong in government either. Nobody's Religion belongs in Government, hence it's separation from it. Church and State go together like Jeepz, and Lowriders.

Mirriam Webster:

1 a : to cause to turn aside or away from what is good or true or morally right : CORRUPT b : to cause to turn aside or away from what is generally done or accepted

Sounds like a perversion to me.

True, but who determines morality? Who determines what is good? Again, it is a value that changes with everyone. And if somebody says God, I'll bang my head into my keyboard. :lol:
The fact is that what is generally accepted changes and evolves with the culture.

Things that used to be generally accepted:
Blacks not being able to use White waterfountains.
Blacks only being allowed in the back of the bus.
Illegal search and seizure by the government.
Burning people at the stake for having differing beliefs.
Women not being able to vote.
It was considered "obscene" for women to wear pants.
Jews being sent to concentration camps.
Japanese being sent to American concentration camps.
Slavery.

As you can see, "General Acceptances" change, we evolve, so do valuse of morality. And remember, many people used the Good Book to justify much of the above.

Twisted Copper, You and I have very different opinions/beliefs, but let me say that I look forward to discussing and sharing with you. I consider you a friend, so please make sure you know the tone of my post is strictly spirited for discussion. And that "cunning linguist" reference didn't even get a smiley out of you??? What's up with that. :lol:

Snitty, BTW I was joking about the flannel thing. But I did just kick the hell out of a lumberjack the other day. He WAS a sissy. :lol:

 

[TwistedCU]

Mingez my friend, no hard feelings here. If it makes you feel better i did laugh aloud when I read the linguist shot. :wink:

Although it is true that the things you listed were viewed differently by some in the past, this use of example could be a tactic in any debate.
Yes, times change, but just as views have changed about some things, views on many other issues have remained.

Just for the record, NOWHERE in the constitution is there a reference to separation of church and state. This is a common fallacy. It was in a speech by Thomas Jefferson. The constitution was drafted with the Mayflower Doctrine as a guide. I bet most didn't even read about that in school. The Bible has had alot of influence in the lawmaking of this country. Like it or not it is fact. This in mind I would have to say that I did have a valid arguement. If one day there are more people willing to vote to change the laws as they are written then it will be so. this is why I can be sure that we will have very different looking voting cards (hope there are no loose chads on yours :lol: sorry couldnt resist!)

You probably wonder why I go out of my way to speak out against homosexuality. It is not out of hate. I do not look down on people taking part in these acts nor do I think I am in any way better than any of them. You see, to God, all sin is equal. The bible is very clear about that. From lying to stealing a pack of gum to robbing an old lady all have committed sin equally. We all have sinned in one way shape or form. A common term thrown at Christianity is "hypocrosy". That is because they think if a Christian does something wrong then they are being hypocritical. We are Christians, not Christ himself. Errors will be made, wrongs will be done, but forgiveness is there for those who are willing to turn from sin and turn to God. Without getting too deep into "Bible thumping" I hope you get the idea.

The reason is as you say views, ideals, and values of morality can change. This country once prided itself on it's morals, and I believe them to be our strongest asset. If they are not fought for they will slowly be picked off one by one until we are completely without morals. This was the downfall of every great nation and empire. It most likely will be the downfall of this one as well.

Rest assured, the morals that I hold dear and you despise will fade more and more in our society. It is a big 'ol snowball and it's coming hard and fast. All that's in the book too.

Take a walk outside tomorrow, look around and breathe deeply in the free air and be glad that we can differ. Be glad that we can debate. Be glad that we can vote to make our opinions count for something other that a gripe session on Jeepz.com.

I know I will.

 

[laneiac]

Where were you guys when I was taking my political theory final today???????? Seriously, this post is the best I have seen since I joined here, at least as far as "off jeep" topics are concerned. Your last paragraph, Twisted, was a good one. Mingez, I especially agree with your list of "General acceptances", that was a good post. This has all made me think of how great it is to be American, and how awesome it is that we can all get together and talk, from different parts of this great nation, about something that affects us all in different ways. No matter what happens to America, (including free speech rules, and gay liberation) I will always be proud to be an American (and a jeepz.com member).

 

[Snitty]

I did just kick the hell out of a lumberjack the other day. He WAS a sissy.

I think you got the point... and of course there ARE exceptions to most majorities... but... if they had flannels long ago... i guarantee that pirates would have worn them... and there were NO sissy pirates

From lying to stealing a pack of gum to robbing an old lady all have committed sin equally

not totally right... in Christian beliefs, there are two types of sin... venial (spelling) and mortal... examples of venial sins are lying, stealing gum, and washing a jeep more than once a month.... examples of mortal sins are adultry, murder, and lowering a jeep

perversion

it still is different from the normal and intended ways... it just doesn't work right, and is completely obvious by the physical nature of the two human genders... the puzzle just doesn't fit... it is like lowering a jeep... some people do it.. some accept it... it is definitely NOT the way it is supposed to go... but if people want to do it... just don't show me

 

[mingez]

Good good TC!!! And the linguist ref wasn't a shot. Just reminiscing on some great humor on your part. :wink:

Mind you, it takes a strong-willed intellect (like everyone on this thread) or a stubborn one like myself to stick to his/her guns. It is important to me that it is known that my intent isn't to convince or convert anybody as I know that is a futile endeavor... but, as afore mentioned, debate is healthy.

It's late. but....

You mentioned that the phrase: "separation of church and state" isn't in the Constitution. (Every good right-winger is well schooled on this arguement.)

Absolutely true, and absolutely irrelevant. As you mentioned earlier, separationists take this language from Thomas Jefferson's speech: 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists, in which he argued that the Constitution created a "wall of separation between church and state", and use it as a sort of "rallying cry", But we have never taken the phrase as anything more than a handy (if historically significant) summary of the intent of the religion clauses of the First Amendment.

But if one must use a quote, I found one more apropos to this perspective.
Verbalizing a particular phrase isn't of any particular substance, as political scholar Pfeffer observed:

"No magic attaches to a particular verbalization of an underlying concept. The concept at issue here is more accurately expressed in Madison's phrase 'separation between Religion and Government,' or in the popular maxim that 'religion is a private matter.'"

Second, "accommodationists" (those claiming religion/law symbiosis) don't apply this argument consistently. Pfeffer continues:

"The phrase "Bill of Rights" has become a convenient term to designate the freedoms guaranteed in the first ten amendments; yet it would be the height of captiousness to argue that the phrase does not appear in the Constitution. Similarly, the right to a fair trial is generally accepted to be a constitutional principle; yet the term "fair trial" is not found in the Constitution. To bring the point even closer to home, who would deny that "religious liberty" is a constitutional principle? Yet that phrase too is not in the Constitution. The universal acceptance which all these terms, including "separation of church and state," have received in America would seem to confirm rather than disparage their reality as basic American democratic principles. "

To paraphrase, many important democratic principles don't necessarily appear in the constitution. Absence of the words themselves isn't proof of fallacy. They are still considered "Rights" and within a court of law, be judged as such.

As for my voting card: Bush all the way! <cough>

 

[Snitty]

oooohhh. now for the voting card.... i still can't go either way... political parties piss me off to no end... there is no way to vote either way for me... i vow to vote for what I BELIEVE is right... and being that each candidate is loyal to a "political party" and will sway their ideas accordingly, and being that I see rights and wrongs in each party, I can't cast a vote toward either candidate

 

[mingez]

I think you got the point... and of course there ARE exceptions to most majorities... but... if they had flannels long ago... i guarantee that pirates would have worn them... and there were NO sissy pirates

Uhhh, Johnny Depp in Pirates of the Caribbean.

it still is different from the normal and intended ways... it just doesn't work right, and is completely obvious by the physical nature of the two human genders... the puzzle just doesn't fit... it is like lowering a jeep... some people do it.. some accept it... it is definitely NOT the way it is supposed to go... but if people want to do it... just don't show me

Different from normal and intended ways is an "Aberration".

I dunno, the word "perversion" seems sooo strong. It's like the word aberration, but implies the word "sicko" as well. But I get your drift. :idea:


Lanieac, thanks dude, I agree this is an awesome thread. I love this site.

 

[Tug-n-pull]

Again, let me be clear.... Many many Americans don't believe in God. Therefore, "God determined that" is not a valid arguement. It's gotta be something more logical and less theological. And the book you speak of... means nothing to me. Doesn't have any validity. I have 6 other books from 6 other religions sitting on my bookshelf that refute everything in there. I don't care if you're a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Christian.. whatever. The sentence "My God says so" just doesn't cut it.

Let us use Nature! Do you at least believe in Nature? Is it natural for two of the same sex to want to have sex? What other mamal on earth has same sex relationships? How can this be a natural act? As for the 6 books you have that refute the bible please let me know what they are and where in any of them that they say Homosexual are right in what they do. Let me know what religion says killing, stealing, adultery, acts of sexual preversion, or any of the big 10 for that matter is ok. Well leave out the on other God before me and the taken of the name in vain. They are orginals that none of the others thought of.

Religion doesn't belong in government either. Nobody's Religion belongs in Government, hence it's separation from it. Church and State go together like Jeepz, and Lowriders.

Here is where I can not see where you get your information from. Take that dollar out of your pocket and read "Who do we Trust" Repete the Pledge and under who is this nation! This country is founded on God. Read the founding documents and take a close look at the monuments and see who show up everywhere in this great countrys goverment! God does. So my friend you God dont belong statement holds no water! He is all over and through our goverment. Like it or not! The God in this country at the founding was not Ali, Budda, or any other than the Christian God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

True, but who determines morality? Who determines what is good? Again, it is a value that changes with everyone. And if somebody says God, I'll bang my head into my keyboard. :lol:
The fact is that what is generally accepted changes and evolves with the culture.

The Majority does! We Vote in this nation to settle this and we have courts to make some of the tough calls. But the elected officals are the voices of the people and they are there by our votes. The only reason I leave God out of this is to protect your head for keyboard dammage. Can you honestly say this culture has evolved to a higher state of morality? Jeeze man get a grip on yourself.

Things that used to be generally accepted:
Blacks not being able to use White waterfountains.
Blacks only being allowed in the back of the bus.
Civil Rights are still being fought for. Not just by the Blacks. The tide is turning slowly but it is turning.
Illegal search and seizure by the government.
How can you think that does not go on any more. Taxes are a form of the same. Stock pile up several full auto weapons and a few other items the goverment frowns upon and see if you are able to keep em if they find you have em!
Burning people at the stake for having differing beliefs.
This is going back a ways wouldn't you say. Not that I disagree with such an out pouring of passion! hehhehehehe
Women not being able to vote.
It was considered "obscene" for women to wear pants.
Well we are ahead of much of the world on that one. Many countrys would just kill em for such a thing.
Jews being sent to concentration camps.
And freed by American lives to get em out of the same.
Japanese being sent to American concentration camps.
Pearl Harbor!!!!! Sould we set the Taliban Free among the general population that are in the same over in Cuba now! The Japanese brought that on them selves! Picked the wrong side to fight for.
Slavery.
Have you been out of the city of late. Grow anything in your part of the world? Who is picken the crops? If they are not carrying a Green Card then they might as well be slaves. Treated like slaves and paid like slaves and fear of deportation keeps em picken cause liven like a slave is better than going home.

As you can see, "General Acceptances" change, we evolve, so do valuse of morality. And remember, many people used the Good Book to justify much of the above.

"No that is not As I can see" that is as you can see! Your dawg just does not hunt.

I can not think of a major religion period that will justify your way of thinking. I can not think of a major goverment that stands for how you believe for that matter. Your argument is weak. I am going to be praying for you like it or not cause I still pray no matter what anyone says. I use to live in the big citys of this great land. I was not always in the small town where your way of thinking would be tauned and discouraged if you made them public. I had almost forgotten there were folks like you out there with nothing to stand for with any real solid moral fiber. I am so sorry for you. tug

 

[mingez]

Tug, I'll just put that in the "emotional response" file. :shock:

Thanks for feeling sorry for me. :roll:

I'll respond tommorrow.

 

[judge09]

Wow this is awsome. 70 responses. I am glad I am not the only one who has been thinking about freedoms as of late. It is great to see everyones opinion. I think everyone who has posted makes some valid point but I havent heard anyone that I agree totally with. What a great example of the melting pot that is the US. So many people with different opinions and ideas that can live together, work together, and play together. Thats why I really cant understand why there are so many problems in the middle east (and elsewhere) between neighbors and within the same country. There is such malcontent for the US, but look what really goes on beneath the govt. Different people living together in harmony (for the majority).

 

[TwistedCU]

not totally right... in Christian beliefs, there are two types of sin... venial (spelling) and mortal... examples of venial sins are lying, stealing gum, and washing a jeep more than once a month.... examples of mortal sins are adultry, murder, and lowering a jeep

I was making reference to the New Testament in the Bible. Not neo-catholisism.

 

[TwistedCU]

(Every good right-winger is well schooled on this arguement.)Don't be putting labels on me man the right wing pisses me off just as much as the left. Just in different ways.

As for my voting card: Bush all the way! <cough>
I just don't know who the heck I will vote for. Tweedle-dee or Tweedle-dumb

 

[mingez]

(Every good right-winger is well schooled on this arguement.)Don't be putting labels on me man the right wing pisses me off just as much as the left. Just in different ways.

As for my voting card: Bush all the way! <cough>
I just don't know who the heck I will vote for. Tweedle-dee or Tweedle-dumb

yeah, was TOTALLY kidding about Bush. See ya'll tonight. :wink:

 

[LadyJeepFreak]

OH, how IRRITATING! I typed a long note and it got ATE by internet explorer. I have so little free time for debate right now, but I will try to get another post up tonight. I need to read this last page over too.

I am thrilled to see these discussions here, it's so intellectual and refreshing. It's sometimes hard to find those two things in combination these days.

Bon Voyage in Four days!
Lady

 

[Snitty]

I was making reference to the New Testament in the Bible. Not neo-catholisism

HA HA... in NO way am i a neo-religious person.. there is no opponent to "new age church" than me... mortal and venial sins were a concept way long before the one-world started to take over religion

 

[TwistedCU]

I was making reference to the New Testament in the Bible. Not neo-catholisism

HA HA... in NO way am i a neo-religious person.. there is no opponent to "new age church" than me... mortal and venial sins were a concept way long before the one-world started to take over religion

I didn't say new age. That mortal/venial thing is a Catholic belief is it not? I am not Catholic. The Catholic church underwent many changes in the mid 1900's. There are older sects or "orthodox" sects like the one I heard Mel Gibson speaking about.

 

[pushead]

I was a 100% Bush supporter a month ago but the possible lose of our most basic rights is in all honesty scary and I dont see how I can vote for bush again. I am real interested to hear what everyone thinks.

I can't say I was ever a 100% supporter of any politician, but I really liked the ticket Bush ran on in '00. He ran on a smaller gov't and lower taxes ticket. We got the lower taxes, but the deficit sure has made it look like bad timing. As to the smaller gov't - HA!
The outsourcing of Jobs is the final straw. Problem is I can't stand John Kerry. I do like John Mccain though. If he runs with Kerry that could swing my vote if you can believe it!

I now this is going back for this conversation. But to blame any president for the outsourcing of jobs is out there. The president is not the CEO of the companies. If any thing he may be a share holder in some the same as you and me may be. Now as a shareholder what do you want? You want earnings on your money. How do you get it? The company you invest in has to make a profit. To make the profit share holders demand now days jobs have to be outsourced. Are you going to pay a employee 20 dollars an hour to do the same job I can pay some one in India or Vietnam .50 Cent a hour. That's the average wage in Vietnam and also = big profit margins. I don't see the average American taking that kind of pay cut. I know I cant. So how is it the president fault that jobs are being outsourced? Perhaps you should quit investing your money and purchasing items from companies that do such things. Like Bank of America, H.R Block, Nike, Motorola, Etc. Last I heard the president does not run any of these companies. But I bet you deal with at least on of them. Why are you still shopping with them? You can stop buying from them the same as you can change a channel on your tv or radio.

 

[laneiac]

Just out of curiousity, how does H.R. Block pay oversea employees to do Americans taxex? Isnt that the place that you walk into and say, "Here, do my taxes"? Correct me if Im wrong.