North Korea Nukes

[TwistedCU]

I'd be happy to list the several things (including the WMD's) found in Iraq that violated the agreement that Saddam signed, but in another thread. You're welcome to start one. Not trying to be difficult but I could see that would be a discussion in itself.

About North Korea, and also President George H.W. Bush's initial withdrawl from Iraq...

Although I am sure it was clear to both of "Da Bushes" that the UN was clearly a stubling block in both instances, you must acknowledge the fact that they are the voice of several important allies of the United States. The United States is also an important part of the UN in addition to being the largest financier (unfortunately). We have agreed to participate and adhere to , with certain exceptions, their policies. edit - don't get me wrong, I can't stand the UN, but they have to be respected somewhat.

That said, in reference to Iraq, there was tremendous pressure to not follow Saddam's army into Iraq after the gulf war. We agreed but under the conditions referenced earlier. It wasn't a bad move, because Bush knew they would probably screw up and we'd go in anyway. What he didn't know is the UN wouldn't stand behind it and neither would the US under the Clinton admisnistration. Saddam continually thumbed his nose, tested waters, and when our current Predsident got in to office it was made clear early on (pre-9/11/01) that if Saddam continued to disobey the agreements there would be repercussions. He followed through. The UN would still be playing the game. (It appears we at least agree on our opinion of the UN ).

In reference to N. Korea: Again, yes pressure from the UN, but this time it is different. There has been no war (yet?). There has been no misuse of these weapons against another country. It is insane to bomb a country for merely testing weapons. Insane in the sense that it would have the entire world up in arms against us. We truly would be alone on that one and it would accomplish nothing except start a war with that manic over there. They have nukes now, the playing field is different. Sure the UN is inept. Sure diplomacy with N. Korea is pointless, but to just open up and attack them then or even now would be a pre-emptive strike and an act of war, which that maniac would love to have happen.

What we need to do is stay ahead of them as I mentioned earlier. North Korea won't be the last country to delvelop these weapons, and we can't go into every country that develops them with guns and missles blazing.

Every great nation in history that spread themselves too thin trying to dominate or police like that perished soon after. We would be no different.

 

[mud4feet]

OK, I usually sit back and read and puke when the political stuff comes up.............but I have to respond. I don't doubt anyone's "patriotism" or anything like that, but I think we all need to back up and think about our history and what this country used to stand for. What has been bothering me for a long, long time, regardless of political affiliation (they're all idiots anymore, as far as I'm concerned), is the fact that we invaded a country that did nothing to us directly...........no attacks, no physical harm...........yeah, they had a dictator who sucked and abused his people, but............what business is that of ours? And we're holding people down in Guantanamo who have not been charged with anything, not tried for anything, for, what, 5 years now??.............glad it's not me............bad, bad precident and totally against the values our country was founded upon. We tore down the Iron Curtain and now we want to build one on our southern border.:shock: I'm an old bastid that's seen a lot and doesn't like the way our country and our mindset is headed. That's about it, flame me if you will, but think about it...................that's all I ask.

worried about my country and my countrymen,
mud

 

[Gone&DoneIt]

No reason to flame anyone,... I think there is already a little much of that on the board, anyway,...I agree that we tend to involve ourselves a little too often in affairs far beyond our borders. The Arab world hates us,... much of that is unwarranted,... but lets be real,... some of it is. I don't think anyone can take a resolute stand on these issues,... if they were that simple,... they wouldn't cause this much strife, discord, and agony.

Lets not think that the US is completely in the right here. No one is clear here,... all nations involved are guilty of some level of hypocrisy. That doesn't mean that I don't support, admire, or pray for our troops. Most of my friends involved don't blindly agree with our policy,... they are doing the job they are paid to do,... the job I am not strong enough, or dedicated enough to do. God forbid we have to send more of our men and women to distant shores. I pray this goes away.

 

[mud4feet]

No reason to flame anyone,... I think there is already a little much of that on the board, anyway,...I agree that we tend to involve ourselves a little too often in affairs far beyond our borders. The Arab world hates us,... much of that is unwarranted,... but lets be real,... some of it is. I don't think anyone can take a resolute stand on these issues,... if they were that simple,... they wouldn't cause this much strife, discord, and agony.

Lets not think that the US is completely in the right here. No one is clear here,... all nations involved are guilty of some level of hypocrisy. That doesn't mean that I don't support, admire, or pray for our troops. Most of my friends involved don't blindly agree with our policy,... they are doing the job they are paid to do,... the job I am not strong enough, or dedicated enough to do. God forbid we have to send more of our men and women to distant shores. I pray this goes away.

Don't get me wrong..........lesson learned from Viet Nam.........do NOT blame the troops for our politician's folly..........their just doin' their job, God bless them!!!!!

 

[Sparky-Watts]

Pretty well put for an old fart, Mud. And I have to say, I agree. Our hunt for Bin Laden has turned totally cold, meanwhile we have gotten ourselves into another Viet Nam. There is no way we will ever win over the insurgents in Iraq. As great as our military is, it is not equipped nor trained to deal with that type of fighting, and never has been. I'm not knocking our military, oh no, I respect and support them 100%. No army in the world can deal with that type of warfare, short of nuking the whole country into oblivion, and I don't see that as a viable option.

Clinton was on the right track with Korea back in the 90's, had an open line of communication with them, and had set down a framework to deal with them. He himself admits the framework was flawed, however, it was something Bush could have built on. Instead, Bush trashed it all, broke off ties, and refuses to even talk with North Korea. How the heck do you expect to reach an agreement if you don't even talk to someone? And perhaps we should mind our own business and stay out of other countries' affairs, but I also feel we have a duty to protect those who can't protect themselves. No, North Korea hasn't used the weapon against anyone yet, whereas Saddam had used WMD's in the past. We can't say with any certainty whether North Korea will use it offensively or not, but it's big enough and bad enough we need to ascertain that fact as soon as possible and do something to mitigate it if that is their desire. Once he uses one, it will be too late. The test he did registered a 4.2 on the Richter Scale, and experts say it was a "small" bomb. Perhaps small enough to be mounted to a missile. That is the scary part. But, if 4.2 was small, what if they do make a big one, cart it to one of their borders and touch it off when the prevailing winds carry the radioactive cloud away from them and into a neighboring country? What then? Do we sit by and wait for that to happen, or do we stop it before it gets that far?

 

[90Xjay]

OK, I usually sit back and read and puke when the political stuff comes up.....

Mud, I noticed you have recently changed your avatar to make a political statement. You are involved in the process and I respect your views while I don't agree 100% with your reasoning. I have no problem with folks who disagree with the elected government, it keeps us honest and makes us stronger. However, there are some extremist, esp the majority of the media, who are undermining our country with their power and that weakens us as a nation. We live in perilous times my friend, above all, our nation needs prayer.

We tore down the Iron Curtain and now we want to build one on our southern border.

The Iron Curtain in the Soviet Union is not a good comparison with the fence we are trying to build on our border. In the Soviet era the Iron Curtain did not exist in order to keep illegal immigrants out of Russia that were coming over, breaking laws and working for cash to avoid taxation. In fact I don't know of any great desire to get in to Russia at that time in history.

 

[redrooster]

My take is that the only reason we have not launched an offensive (with either administration) is because the N. Koreans would likely counter against the S. Koreans instead of the US. The South Koreans will stand up and fight against the North, but they really don't need us touching off a war for them.
It's kind of like fighting with someone smaller than you. They know they aren't as big, so they threaten to kick your little brother's arse if you mess with them.

 

[mud4feet]

.........................The Iron Curtain in the Soviet Union is not a good comparison with the fence we are trying to build on our border.............

My mistake, I meant the Berlin Wall. Doesn't really change the point I was trying to make. I'm not real eloquent, but I am deeply disturbed with the direction this country is going.

 

[TwistedCU]

we invaded a country that did nothing to us directly...........no attacks, no physical harm...........yeah, they had a dictator who sucked and abused his people, but............what business is that of ours?

They attacked Saudi Arabia, and would have won if we hadn't intervened. That did affect us, it would have brought instability to the oil industry and our economy. They lost, they agreed to terms, they welched. We enforced. What part of that is so elusive to people?

As for Gitmo, what part of the Geneva convention are we in violation of? You think this is the first time we have had prisoners of war?

Those incidents involving sexual acts is both inexcusable and absolutely disgust me, but they happened and there is no changing it. It was a disgraceful thing to have happen by our military, but it's over and we can not just release those prisoners because of it.

We could stop our fighting, withdraw all troops from everywhere and bring them home, but the Jihadist's war will continue until it is at our doorstep again. I'd rather it happen on their soil than ours.

People in this country better get used to the fact that we are at war and this is a fight that will be fought either now or later. The division weakens us and if we can prevail it will take more than we are giving the effort right now.

 

[90Xjay]

My mistake, I meant the Berlin Wall. Doesn't really change the point I was trying to make. I'm not real eloquent, but I am deeply disturbed with the direction this country is going.

Well if you view North America as one big country then I can see where a fence between Mexico and the United States would be a problem.
I really respect your views Mud and you have a conviction about you, but illegal immigration is doing more to hurt America IMO, than it does to help.

WE are both worried about the direction our country is headed. From the past several administrations we are paying for bad choices we made in the past dealing with or not dealing with foreign leaders. I fear for our national sovereignty more than anything. We ought to be more concerned about protecting our way of life and our freedoms than I think most Americans are. Sports, movies and other disctractions can keep people from being aware and vigilent.

 

[Sparky-Watts]

They attacked Saudi Arabia, and would have won if we hadn't intervened. That did affect us, it would have brought instability to the oil industry and our economy. They lost, they agreed to terms, they welched. We enforced. What part of that is so elusive to people?

You keep saying they welched on the terms set forth back in the '90s, but where and how did they? It certainly wasn't with WMD's as you've said in previous posts.

 

[TwistedCU]

Not worth it.

 

[Sparky-Watts]

Not worth it.

Yeah, I didn't think so.

 

[TwistedCU]

Yeah, I didn't think so.

If you can't remember what happened back then with the inspectors then do a google search.

 

[Sparky-Watts]

If you can't remember what happened back then with the inspectors then do a google search.

I remember all of that. I just wanted to know where you came up with the WMD's. That is what the whole war was centered on this time around, and that turned out to be a lie. Everyone alive during that period remembers the WMD lies. If you don't remember that, then do a google search.

Now we've got a madman on our hands that admits to having WMD's, and we know he has them, yet we aren't going to do anything about it aside from slapping him on the wrists. I can understand the hesitancy of any type of physical action, as it would carry dire consequences for that part of the Asian Peninsula. If we lobbed a Tomahawk into Pyongyang, they'd hit Seoul, and all heck would break loose. But, in the same sense, we knew by lobbing a few thousand at Bhagdad, we'd create an insurmountable amount of turmoil in the gulf, yet we did it anyway under false pretenses.

 

[TwistedCU]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213

 

[TwistedCU]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

 

[TwistedCU]

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/06/21/santorum-wmd/

 

[mingez]

Hmmm... I was under the impression that the Media was "Liberal biased" and therefore an unreliable source...

 

[Sparky-Watts]

Hmmm... I was under the impression that the Media was "Liberal biased" and therefore an unreliable source...

Yeah, me too......