I got DW. No, not Darrell Waltrip

[southtj]

Yeah, I gots the Death Wobble. The Jeep is an 04 with about 32k miles on it. The tires are MT\Rs with about 1/4 tread left. I know, I need to replace them and I'm about to but I'm not ready to do it just yet. Oh, and I just installed a 2" BB lift.

Occasionally, before the lift, if I was going over 50ish and I hit a pretty good bump, I would feel the front suspension wobble a few extra times. It wasn't like a shock wearing out bounce but kind of a gentle wobble and it didn't happen very often. I worried then that I may be getting the beginning of the DW as the tires were wearing out. I have had them balanced in the last 1000 miles.

Now the lift is on and yesterday I was doing about 45-50 and hit a bump and it starts shaking a little and a few seconds later hit another bump and it goes into convulsions bad and kept shaking until I slowed to about 30.

I have read threads over the years about death wobble and no one ever seems to have an answer. Everyone says to check this and check that and tighten this and tighten that and replace this and...well you get my drift. Know one seems to know what exactly causes it and I never find anyone that says, "hey, I did 'this' and it fixed the problem." I guess it is different for everyone but I wish I could find out what people have done to fix theirs. What was your solution?

I'm guessing mine should be pretty simple (I'm really hoping) as there are not many miles on the suspension parts and the tires are worn and I just installed a lift and haven't had an alignment yet. I'm going to try to get an alignment today so we'll see if that helps.

 

[redrooster]

The reason no one can give you a definite answer is that there are several things that cause the steering and axle geometry to get out of whack. Sometimes it's worn components, sometimes it's mods you have made to the Jeep. You will have to look at each area.

 

[Utah_jeepster]

As Red stated its hard to track down what started the DW's. Here we have a starting clue, you just installed a budget boost, The first thing to look at is your idler arm, do you have a drop pitman arm or is it stock? too much angle there and you get the DW's. Second is the track bar that needs to be parallel to the road as much as possible. One or both of these are the first thing to look at when you lift, third did you get it re-aligned after you lifted it? having a front end shop look at your alignment will tell you if your caster angle is out and you might need cam bolts to fix that as well.
With an 04 I wouldn't be worried about worn parts as much as mis-aligned parts.

 

[TerryMason]

Death Wobble

My 2005 was way out of alignment after my 2" lift.

 

[southtj]

The pitman arm is stock as is everything else except for the BB. Just got an alignment since I posted this morning. Toe was way off but that is about all he saw wrong.

Is the front trackbar the same as the swaybar? Yeah, I'm not to bright with the front suspension stuff. Terry, where are those glossary auto link thingies when I need them?

edit: well there they are. cool

 

[Bounty__Hunter]

Pitman arm and trackbar geometry have nothing to do with deathwobble, that's where you get bumpsteer from. Two different problems.

A loose or worn trackbar will give you deathwobble. The majority of the time I've seen loose/worn track bars and worn out control arm bushings the culprit of DW. Watch both ends of the front track bar as somebody bounces the steering wheel back and forth against full-lock quickly. Also inspect the control arm bushings closely with a flashlight and screwdriver for tears in the rubber.

In my opinion there are two different aspects to DW, a problem that induces the wobble like out of balance tires or hitting a bump in the road, and a problem that allows a vibration to escalate into full-blown pucker factor death wobble, like a worn trackbar coupled with other worn components.

Keep in mind that deathwobble is a visious side to side cycling of the front axle and/or steering, and the main component to control that is the trackbar. The steering stabilizer plays a part to a lesser extent, and is often a bandaid fix that helps to cover up a more serious problem.

 

[redrooster]

I agree with what Bounty said, but believe in both South and Terry's case the Toe is the culprit. I'm no expert at alignment by any means, but if you look at South's data on the TOE, it says that before alignment his total TOE was 1.09". They adjusted it out to about .24" In simple terms your Jeep was pigeon toed. This will make it track very straight, but will wear the inside of the tires out and also make each wheel fight each other for who gets to go in a straight line. When you hit a pothole, the fight is amplifed.
So how did it get that way? The lift would have caused the caster to change (tilting the axle forward slightly), therefore throwing the toe out also. Even though it wasn't out very bad, it must have been enough when combined with the toe to give you the DW.
Good Definitions and diagrams at this link. Read the last two paragraphs in the "Toe" section.
Tire Tech Information - Alignment

 

[southtj]

In my opinion there are two different aspects to DW, a problem that induces the wobble like out of balance tires or hitting a bump in the road, and a problem that allows a vibration to escalate into full-blown pucker factor death wobble, like a worn trackbar coupled with other worn components.

Mine is definately bump induced DW. Red, even though they fixed the toe problem it is still doing it. Seems worse if you ask me. I also posted on a local BB and a guy there says it should be no problem to fix. He's fixed his and a few friends as well. It was my first post on the boards there and he immediately offered to take a look at it this weekend if I brought it by. Sounds like a good plan if you ask me. I'll let you know what he finds.

He also directed me to a post of his where he gives a lot of good information about vibrations on lifted Jeeps. I thought it might be good to have it here as well.

From Midsouthjeeps

Here's a post I've put on a few other boards, looks like it'll be needed here also as folks lift their rigs. For those planning a lift, you may want to go over this stuff first to perhaps prevent it from occuring after your lift.

I've been dealing with steering vibes off and on since I first lifted my TJ. It's an ongoing process as things wear. The vibes I mention are small things that I catch right away and fix before they affect vehicle control by going into full death wobble. Since I don't know what all you have on there, here's some things to check:

1) Trackbar axle bolt TIGHT, hole still round, correct size bolt, bushings/joints in good shape. Dana axle bracket is a 7/16" hole, bushing is 10mm, and bolt is 9mm. The bushing can be drilled to 7/16" to match, and new hardware installed to tighten this up.

2) Tires balanced? Super Swampers, for example, are notorious for being way out of balance. I use Centramatic dynamic wheel balancers to keep mine balanced.

3) Upper adjustable control arms to set correct castor. A good self check can be performed by placing an angle finder on the flat plate next to the shock just behind the axle tube. (Check each side.) If it's about 3 degrees below 0, you should be OK, less than that and you will likely have some trouble. Here's an example! Here's another! Another way to see what the actual angle is can be performed by placing a large socket on top of the ball joint, make sure it's sitting flat with the joint, and placing the angle finder on top. The drivers side is hard to see accurately because of the diff and the control arms. A mirror and flashlight may make it easier. The digital one works better then the needle one for this test, you can push a button and hold the reading while you extract it from back there.

4) TRE's in good shape, you may even have to disconnect the joints and move them by hand to verify smooth operation. Remember, easiest way to remove TRE's is to hit the surrounding metal piece with a BFH to loosen, don't hit the threaded end or use a pickle fork unless you are 100% sure you don't want to use that TRE again.

5) Solid lower control arms to prevent unwanted movement and flex, if you still have the factory ones they could be the problem.

6) Control arm joints tight, my RE superflex joints can be disassembled, cleaned, lubed, rebuilt, and reassembled as required for only $10 if parts are needed. Alternately I can just tighten them up with an inexpensive tool. RE told me to rebuild after tightening 3 or 4 times. The bushing on the other end can also be replaced for $10 and a few minutes work once the arm is removed.

7) Factory washers on the lower control arm to axle joint. My RE arms came with new washers, so I used 'em. They were slightly smaller in diameter and thickness them the factory, and didn't have the tapered edge to ensure correct axle alignment. Once I replaced them with the factory ones, it tightened things up nicely.

8) Check the joints in the steering shaft, one under the hood and one under the dash. I had one loosen up, and it took forever to find it. Felt like problems elsewhere in the steering system because it allows play between steering wheel and the rest of the steering system. I ended up replacing my intermediate steering shaft and it was good to go.

9) Wheel bearings (hubs) in good shape? Cheapest I found for my wifes TJ was about $150 at Autozone, made by Timkin, highly respected bearing company. Everybody else wanted around $200. Don't do what the previous owner (idiot!) did to hers, he only tightened the axle nut to hand tight instead of 175 ft/lbs.

10) How about your ball joints? Same goes there, a good way to check is to jack the tire off the ground and see if there's any top/bottom play.

11) Ensure upper and lower shock bushings are in good shape, I had one get cut by a sharp edge on the upper mount, allowed some unwanted axle movement before any dampening occured.

12) Last but not least...check your axle shaft u-joints. I had one that was worn, and it allowed just enough wiggle at speed that death wobble would occur if I hit a bump the right way. This was after putting 35's on, the heavier wheels prevented the system from dampening out the vibes as easily.

Basically do an inspection of every part from the steering wheel to the tire. Verify each fastener fits correctly in the holes provided with no slop. Each time you find a component worn, or loose, and you tighten or correct the problem, your alignment will be off again. Get a factory service manual or Chilton's to ensure correct torque specs. Near the end of ORO's U-turn install instructions, they give a good step by step procedure for doing a self alignment that you can follow. Get it here! I do this about once a quarter anyway just to check. Make it part of your routine maintenance as it only takes about 20-30 minutes if adjustments are needed, only 10 minutes to check.

Stock Jeeps don't have castor/camber adjustments, so many shops will only adjust toe unless you tell them specifically that you have adjustable upper arms, then they'll probably want to charge you more. An honest shop will tell you that the alignment stand may not even read your vehicle correctly, depends on the equipment they have, so talk to the manager.

HTH,
Mark

 

[Bounty__Hunter]

The caster change after a budget boost isn't enough to significantly change toe-in. The toe-in is increased because of a TJ's goofy steering linkage. An increase in lift height increases the angle of the draglink and tierod, shortening the distance between the two steering arms on the axle. Doesn't happen on YJ's or CJ's, or any vehicle with normal steering and a tierod that goes from knuckle to knuckle.

IMO proper toe-in is not a major contributor to DW, but caster would be. I adjust caster all the way out (when using OEM cambolts) on a budget boost and it corrects caster and decreases the chance of DW.

 

[southtj]

I didn't think it was related at the time but now I'm not so sure. The morning of the first time I noticed the DW I was rear ended. I was in the turn lane waiting to turn and the guy behind me bumpls into me. Hard enough to break my bike rack but no damage to the Jeep. That evening on the way home is the first time I experience the DW. Related?

 

[redrooster]

The caster change after a budget boost isn't enough to significantly change toe-in. The toe-in is increased because of a TJ's goofy steering linkage. An increase in lift height increases the angle of the draglink and tierod, shortening the distance between the two steering arms on the axle. Doesn't happen on YJ's or CJ's, or any vehicle with normal steering and a tierod that goes from knuckle to knuckle.

Your'e exactly right. I was sitting there scratching my head wondering how the toe could have gotten that far out of spec with a small caster change. I forgot that the TJ tie rod is not knuckle to knuckle.

One of the mods needs to make this a Sticky in the tech forum as "The Official Death Wobble Thread."

 

[Bounty__Hunter]

Some good DW tech stickied would be a good idea.

 

[Who_Cares]

Sorry to hear about your DW problem. I had it for YEARS. I bet you'll never guess what fixed it.

I still remember the day it happened. I took an off-ramp to Wade Green on I-75. Comming from 75 mph to Zero and when I got to about 25 it felt like my whole body shifted forward without the Frame. an hour later I touched 45 mph and the steering wheel was nearly snatched out of my hand and the cars around me even steered clear.

I tried EVERYTHING. Alighnment, New wheels and balance, New tires (helped for a few months until the tread wore down just right) and the wobble would come back. I even tried The BDS Double steering stabilizer.

One thing I hadn't payed close enough attention to was when I changed my Front Brake Pads. The Piston was a horrendous task to get back in so that I could replace the inside pad but I got it done. Last year, 2007, I went to get my brakes inspected and fixed. Well, they informed me that the TJ Caliper comes with plastic parts. Use it too much on the road or hill or just plain use it too much and it swells and you have to replace it. I had begun noticing that my DW had stopped being horrible because I keep new tires on it (the reason is another story) except when I would have my foot on the brakes between 55 and 50 while slowing down or if I stayed steady at 50 - 55. Replaced the Caliper and I haven't had DW again.

Take your TJ for a brake inspection ask them to check the Calipers in the front, unless you have the 4 disk brake upgrade, then check them all. It's free at Brake-Plus.

 

[southtj]

Long time no see, Who_Cares. Good to see you.

I went over to a guys house this weekend that is the local Jeep fixit guy. When I got there, there were 3 Jeeps on the street, one in the garage being lifted and another showed up later. All are lifted and I think most have had DW issues at one time or another. He looked at everything under the front end and was stumped. Nothing loose, nothing out of line. He was really surprised that I had DW. We went for a test drive and of course it didn't do it. I haven't had it happen since Friday but that doesn't mean it won't do it again.

Funny you mention the brakes because while he couldn't find anything wrong with the front end, he said he was concerned about the brakes. He said there is a slight throbbing/jerking while braking. I had noticed it but just figured it was getting time for a brake job but he said I shouldn't need one yet at 31,000 miles. I think I'll get all four calipers looked at. Thanks.

 

[southtj]

Brake job done, calipers in good shape. I went to 4Wheel Parts and told him we've checked "everything" and he said I should replace the steering stabilizer. So, I'll put that on and see if that help. If this doesn't fix it the only thing left that I need to change is the tires. They are pretty worn but I'm not ready to spend the $$ for new ones just yet. 4Wheel Parts said they can take a look at it next week so I may do that.

If no one can fix this DW, I'll be forced to remove the lift.

 

[southtj]

I put on a ProComp ES2000 steering stabilizer last night. It took about an hour total to install. It would have taken less if I'd known I needed a pitman arm puller to remove it. BFH wasn't doing it. One trip to Auto Zone later and it was easy.

Edit: see here.

I've only driven it about 5 miles but it appears to have fixed the problem. The bump that will make it wobble every time had zero effect on it today. It feels a little different accelerating while turning but should be fine. Let's hope it lasts.

 

[southtj]

For those still keeping score, the steering stabilizer did NOT fix the problem but just masked it a bit. It used to do it on a few hard bumps but not anymore on those. It does still do it while driving about 50 then the wobble slowly starts and increases in intensity until I slow down.

I had 4Wheel parts check out the DW and remount the steering stabilizer correctly and they seem to think it is the tires that are causing the wobble. We'll see.

 

[TwistedCU]

Is the front trackbar the same as the swaybar? Yeah, I'm not to bright with the front suspension stuff. Terry, where are those glossary auto link thingies when I need them?

edit: well there they are. cool

I didn't see it mentioned in the thread, but as you may already know by now the trackbar and swaybar are not the same. The trackbar locates (keeps centered) your axle and the swaybar reduces... sway.

A newer or heavier duty steering stabilizer will merely mask a front end problem like death wobble.

Has your alignment been checked? What are the specs? Did I miss you mentioning it was in the thread? It could and would definitely be out from the lift, but if you got rear-ended with your wheels turned it may have been thrown out even further.

If you had it aligned after the lift, but before the rear-ended incident, have it checked. If you haven't had it checked at all, do it ASAP. If there are no visibly obvious damaged or worn parts (joints and bushings or bent parts) in the front end then an alignment should be the #1 thing checked. The tires having proper balance should be #2 (it could be something as simple as a wheel weight being knocked off).

Hope you find the problem soon and keep us posted.

 

[southtj]

Has your alignment been checked? What are the specs? Did I miss you mentioning it was in the thread? It could and would definitely be out from the lift, but if you got rear-ended with your wheels turned it may have been thrown out even further.
...
Hope you find the problem soon and keep us posted.

Post number 5 above shows the specs after I got an alignment. When I got rearended (slight bump really) the wheels were straight. I had just put the lift on a few days before so I may just be a coincidence that it started after the accident. Since the lift and accident I have (1)had it aligned by a reputable shop who also looked for causes of DW, (2) had a self described Jeep expert take a look and he could find nothing, (3) had 4wheel parts inspect it and they also found nothing. The general consensus is that I need new tires. After we move, I'll probably make that purchase and see what happens.

 

[TwistedCU]

The general consensus is that I need new tires.

Sorry I should have looked the thread over more thoroughly. Have you tried to balance the tires? It's hard to get truly balanced aging mud tires but you might be able to get them closer than they are now. Might buy you some time on getting new ones.