Long crank times before startup

[volaredon]

97 Wrangler 4.0 5 spd. 87K miles. Pretty much stock. owned 9 years now. just swapped the body, F&R ends, motor trans T case etc over to a new frame (orig rusted out) Been sitting ~18 months in the garage, because I got hurt badly, Dr orders NOT to drive a stick for a while.
Frame swap done within last 2 weeks, maybe 250 mi on since. Problem? crank and crank and crank, some times 2-3 attempts before it starts. Then it runs fine. I replaced the fuel pump (only) 2 days ago; still using original module housing and gas gauge sending unit; Found strainer mounted to bottom of module floating, not attatched. Inner strainer NASTY; not worth pulling tank just for those, so I put a pump in, while I was in there; replacement pump is a "carter" (that's what the box said; pump itself was stamped Walbro; another brand I recognize that's been around "forever" though) No change. I'm worried I'm gonna burn out a starter soon, if I gotta grind on it this much;

Before my injury that forced me to park the thing, it seems (though i can't remember for sure that long ago) that it was beginning to get harder to start. I DID keep Sta Bil in the gas and did drain and refill it once during that 18 months; burned the gas that was in it, in the wife's Cherokee last fall and refilled it then (about 2/3 of a tank anyway) then when I re framed it I drained it again and put the gas from last fall into another vehicle a 2nd time, refilling the Jeep with fresh gas upon getting it out again; burned that out and 2/3 of a tank since;

I had a problem with the Cherokee (same complaint) 4 years ago when we 1st got that vehicle and a new pump (same brand and PN as the Wrangler takes) cured that one.
I've removed all the grounds once again since the reframe, cleaned the ends and the attatchment points and put them back on. No change. Suggestions? TSBs that apply?

 

[SteelHeadz]

Check for possible causes of fuel pressure leak down. 1.Possible causes for fuel pressure leak down include: 2.External fuel leaks 3.Leaking injectors 4.Defective fuel pump(Fuel pump is equipped with an outlet check valve that is an internal component in the pump) 5.Defective fuel pressure regulator (may be external or integral to the fuel pump,some models the regulator is also the fuel filter). 6.Installing an inline fuel pressure tee adapter and crimping the adapters hoses on each side of the gauge , is useful in determining were the source of the leak down is.

 

[volaredon]

well I guess I'll be pulling the injectors and taking them to the BOSCH place for a flush n test also on the check valve; I saw that in there, followed the instructions to a "T" and put the check valve cack in the hole in the bottom of the module "cup" with its backup washer. (like I said I replaced "just" the pump, NOT the module assy)
thios one has the regulator on top of the module, single line non-return setup I think thats the one with the built in filter; when I needed that for my 97 Ram I decided it was cheaper to put the whole module in, than the pump+ the regulator seperately. Hopefully this won't turn into a situation where I end up wishing I'd done the same thing here. Guess I gouua see if my dealer buddy ahs a fuel pressure gauge I can borrow..... How long should the system hold pressure?
I thought about a few of your listed possibilities but thought those symptoms would cause other driveability issues once running, but once it finally does start it runs great.

 

[SteelHeadz]

It will only cause driveability issues if the fuel pressure regulator is no longer holding pressure at any given time. This will cause the fuel rail not to be able to maintain enough pressure for the injectors to deliver the proper amount of fuel to each cylinder when commanded by the PCM. This also in turn will work your new fuel pump twice as hard and the pump will be short lived. The pressure regulator can be replaced separately from the module if that proves to be at fault.With engine at idle speed, system fuel pressure should be 338 kPa ± 5 kPa (49.0 psi ± 2 psi) . If operating pressure is above 51.0 psi, fuel pump is OK but pressure regulator is defective. Replace fuel filter/fuel pressure regulator assembly. To perform a leak down test, simply install the fuel pressure gauge on the test port and turn the key on engine off. let the fuel pump pressurize the system and watch the gauge. turn the key off and monitor for 5 mins.. If the pressure drops 5-15PSI within 5 mins.the fuel pressure regulator/filter is faulty.

 

[volaredon]

well then the next step would be to borrow that pressure test gauge.

 

[mrmopar02]

My first instinct would say poor fuel pressure. But, I went through this with my '03 Wrangler. I checked everything over and over and over. It turned out my starter was bad. I replaced it and then no issues after that.

 

[volaredon]

My first instinct would say poor fuel pressure. But, I went through this with my '03 Wrangler. I checked everything over and over and over. It turned out my starter was bad. I replaced it and then no issues after that.

Well there were times my starter seemed to drag, even if only a little from the Jeep being sitting; I was gonna get on here today and post this update anyway; but teh E mail notification that I had a reply to the thread made me do it a bit sooner;

The slow starter seemed a lil worse, once I swapped batteries between the Wrangler and the Cherokee that my wife drives daily; the Chero battery was getting old (was in it when we bought the Chero 4+ years ago) so it didn't make sense to have a nearly-new battery in something that was gonna sit and an old, low end of the totem pole, low CCA, cheap battery that we had no idea of the age, in something the wife was driving all the time;
I hate those calls that say" I'm stuck; the vehicle I drove today, won't start" so I put the newer stronger battery into the wife's Jeep; and the old relic into the then-parked Wrangler; that old battery wound up shorting out on me today going down the road; so i put the largest capacity one in it the place I went to had (NO not an Optima); since I've been driving the Wrangler again even with that battery that crapped today in it, the starter seems to be "loosening up" and sounding normal again. (if i don't solve the problem-at-hand soon, i'm sure I will BE puttin a starter into it!) It cranks over GREAT with the new battery in it, for sure.

I was driving along, the "check Gauges" light beeped and came on; my volt gauge was pegged at 19! so I shut it off, turned the key back on, the dash was dead; popped the clutch a few times; would not restart (I was going ~60 down the road) so I coasted to the side; dome light was dimmer than a candle; opened the hood/looked around; dome light came back; got it going again; volt gauge stayed~14, pulled in the 1st place that sold batteries (6 miles from where the gauge pegged and I pulled over) and changed the battery in the parking lot. Drove it~40 miles after and no charging/starting/gauge issues since; so far.

But the long crank time problem is definitely fuel pressure regulator related; I borrowed the test gauge and plugged it in today; once I got home from putting that new battery into it; and yup; soon as I shut it off the pressure bleeds back to almost nothing; and I gotta wait for the pressure to rise again in the line before it'll fire. (watching the gauge as I cranked it over)

This regulator is mounted on the module on top of the tank; single line setup; (no return line) a few years ago when I had trouble with my 97 Ram, I could not even get a FPRegulator w/o getting a whole FP module; (could not get a "pump-only" for that truck either) is it something available seperately, for this Jeep? Through who, and about how much?

I'm now wishing I'd bought the whole module for this rather than pump-only; add the cost for the pump to the price of a regulator (IF I can get it seperate) and it will probably come out to that of a module assembly.

 

[SteelHeadz]

I beleive the fuel pressure regulator/filter can now be serviced separate from the module as opposed to how it used to be serviced as a unit. As for the charging system, when the gauge pegged up to 19 volts, this is a typical symptom of a loose connection. The PCM does not know if there is a battery or not. If the loose connection occurs during a charge commanded by the pcm and the generator is also trying to supply the electronics on the vehicle, the pcm will try to go on a full field charge since it's not detecting a voltage from the battery.

 

[volaredon]

Yeah I know what you mean about loose connections; there weren't any on the battery; I was an ASE tech for 18 years before getting into ind. maintenance and since wound up on SSDisability 19 months ago; (had a chain saw kick back on me in 9/07 that nearly cost me my right foot above the ankle, right in my own damn front yard!) I was what is known now-a-days, as an "under car tech"; brakes suspension lotsa alignments, starters alternators exhaust etc etc;

driveability, especially when it involves a computer or injection I'd have to say is my weak point; (that's why I also own and daily-drive,an '83 dodge 3/4 ton truck, and a low, 42K original mile 78 Fury 2 door hardtop; both 318 powered; I love CARBURETORS! and lack of computers.) I'm not bad at all with electRICAL; but suck at electRONICS. and therefore hate 'em. install a stereo or gauges, lighting wiring/switch problems? No problem for me; But start adding "black boxes" to the circuit? and I'm somewhat screwed. I can do "some" work with them, but not as good with them as I need to be. The 83 truck replaced a 97 Ram that gave me fits; I mean it ran "OK", but I could never get it to run how I WANTED it to; which I can, with a carb. (having a 16year old son, JUST getting his license and needing something I could feel comfortable not having full coverage insurance on, sealed THAT deal) but being relegated to automatics-only by the Dr for as long as I was, due to my injury, is why I've spent more seat time in my 97 and now my 83 pick em ups than my Wrangler; which I missed driving bdly and am now trying to "make up" for that.

But all that said (1) the battery was old and needed replacement anyway; and (2) I've seen batteries short out and do what this one did to me before; more than once (I replaced more Die Hards than I care to shake a stick at working at Sears for 13 years as a part time/"2nd job")

Back to the FPregulator I looked up online; Advance Auto shows it but wants something like $116 for the damn thing; add to the $125 for the pump I put in and I shoulda bought a module; 4 years ago, right when I got my 01 XJ, it had a similar problem with long crank times; I put a pump (only) in it, and its been doing fine, ever since. (we got it at 94K, now with 161K and still run daily by the wife) AFAIK the original regulator is still on that one! Found a couple on Ebay for $40; thats probably the way I'll go. just some more of the "bugs" being worked out of the TJ, typical of a vehicle that has been sitting a while, and having been recently torn completely apart and reassembled upon doing a frame swap; my wife is bugging the Hell outta me to let her drive the Wrangler but dont seem to understand that these are the very reasons that I'm keeping it here and driving it myself for a while; til I work the "bugs" out and can depend on it being reliable again---just like it used to be! this TJ was my daily work vehicle for 7 years before I got hurt; until then, the only problem in all that time? the clutch master/slave blew out-while the wife was driving it (ha ha)

 

[SteelHeadz]

The regulator/filter is around $115.00 from a dealer. That's without a mark up from their system or my discount.

 

[volaredon]

I have a couple buddies in the dealers; I will probably ask them to see what they could do for me; (I give them the cash so they can get it for me at employee cost when I need parts from them) but at $40 for an Airtex-branded one via Ebay, I think that'll probably be my best bet; I'm wishing I'd have gone that route on the new pump. $40 beats $125. I've used Airtex stuff before, and always had good service out of their water and fuel pumps before. Thanks for your input.

 

[volaredon]

I got one via Ebay (FP Reg) $44.95 incl shipping; supposed to be NOS Mopar. so we'll see in a couple of days.......

 

[volaredon]

UPDATE; Got that Ebay FP reg, and installed it yesterday; it now starts like it used to! $44.95 shipped, vs $116 anywhere else I looked; and surprisingly (in a good sort of way) MADE IN USA to boot! no more pressure bleed down immediately upon shutdown, like before.

Unlike the radiator I also recently replaced; on THAT one after the spiel I got about the guy's radiators coming "straight outta Canada", not believing in selling China S#!t, it comes in, we open it up and.... TAIWAN; I Was PI$$ED at that one! Rant for another day I guess.